Author Topic: The Denarians are the good guys?  (Read 8345 times)

Offline heidi_storage

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2021, 01:09:41 AM »
I don't know that I'd endorse your theory, but I have often wondered if Dresden would be a genuine co-belligerent--maybe even ally--of Nicodemus, and not in the treacherous way of SG. It's pretty clear that N. isn't infected with Nemesis, so much as the two hate and fear each other Dresden may actually have to work with Nicodemus.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 02:53:08 AM »
Good? I don't think so, u think they are evil by any known definition. However, they probably do have a purpose to what they are and do. As for Nic "saving" the world. He probably believes that sure. He's using his knowledge gathered over thousands of years with the help of his fallen to effect the end game, most likely stilted in his own favor. But I don't think that's specifically the fallens gig.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2021, 03:28:40 AM »
Also, I suspect that if Jim fully revealed his backstory to us, we would find that beneath his façade Nicodemus hides a deep contempt for humanity that existed before he ever touched one of the coins.  Anduriel probably didn't have to do much to manipulate Nicodemus, just highlight Nic's worst tendencies to nudge him in the right direction.

Reminds me of a WOJ to the effect that Nicodemus is, in some ways, actually worse than Lucifer. While the latter has an argument with heaven, he at least conducts it within certain boundaries.

I wonder whether Anduriel did an amazing job of corrupting Nic, or just had the good fortune to hook up with a nearly perfect bastard from the get-go?

Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2021, 11:10:39 AM »
Reminds me of a WOJ to the effect that Nicodemus is, in some ways, actually worse than Lucifer. While the latter has an argument with heaven, he at least conducts it within certain boundaries.

I wonder whether Anduriel did an amazing job of corrupting Nic, or just had the good fortune to hook up with a nearly perfect bastard from the get-go?

Oh I think he was a bastard from the get go, that is why it is such a perfect partnership.

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2021, 11:21:56 AM »
Oh I think he was a bastard from the get go, that is why it is such a perfect partnership.
That does not mean Anduriel was not busy corrupting him even more. Killing his own daughter was a win.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2021, 11:45:30 AM »

Any moral philosophy can be bad if incorrectly applied. Ontology gets abused as much as the other two, more so quite frankly. I have met more people in my life whose rigid belief that lying is always unethical regardless of the circumstances (almost like a certain character in the Dresden files...) is more dangerous than most utilitarians I have met.

Anyhow. This is a fairly cut and dry case, from the perspective I was laying out. If it really is the case that the White God gaining more followers may lead to it becoming powerful enough to let the outsiders in, than ANY necessary means is justified. We dont know that what the Denarians are doing is necessary. But it could end up being the case that their approach is the only practical one. It isnt that hard to imagine circumstances that would justify extremely Machiavellian actions to prevent a literal hell on earth via the outsiders.

It is entirely possible, probable even, that the Denarians are what the seem. A bunch of evil lunatics. I just think its extremely interesting from a narrative point of view that we havent been told precisely what made the Fallen in the DV rebel. And I dont think its past Jim to do something like this. The time we have spent with Harry as the Winter Knight has made it much less clear that Mab is evil for example.
I agree that a poorly applied philosophy or ideology can be quite awful, although I'd point out that the definition of "poorly applied" is somewhat malleable in that context. Such things by nature are open to interpretation, and everyone already interprets things slightly (sometimes not so slightly) differently. Yes, Kant's position (although he developed it from earlier ideas) was that lying was intrinsically bad - but he also wasn't a pillar of moral virtue himself, so I tend to treat it with a healthy dose of scepticism. I'm not sure which character you're referring to...although if you mean Uriel I'd point out that his real objection to lying was not from mortals, but the Fallen as their lies have far larger and more dangerous impacts (and the Fallen know better).

However, I am not sure you have considered fully the implications of your theory. Your theory assumes the worst possible outcome is victory of the Outsiders and their establishment of Hell on Earth and eventually the destruction of all (or something along those lines). I disagree. The worst possible outcome is far more horrible, in my opinion, and I believe this is why the Angels of Heaven spend so much of their resources fighting the Fallen.

Hypothetically, the worst possible outcome is that in attempting and "succeeding" to save Earth (and the Universe), humanity sacrifices it's own soul to do so. By that I mean for example, let's say Dresden had to murder and/or defile all of Earth's children in order to save the world. I don't see how that would be a world worth saving after that. Extrapolate that problem to not just Dresden having to do it, but all the adults and the problem get's infinitely worse. There are scenarios and outcomes that mean the world wouldn't be worth saving, as in attempting to keep humanity alive we would lose our humanity. We wouldn't have saved anything really. We would have created a Hell on Earth all on our own. Humanity is no so special that they should survive at the expense of all else, including their own humanity. I seem to remember the Bible having some rather extreme measures when humanity got too awful for it's own good, and it's hardly the only religion with such things.

Think about how much Uriel was prepared to sacrifice for the sake of at least ONE soul, if not several. Think about how much Dresden was prepared to sacrifice so Susan wouldn't be left at the mercy of Bianca. Think about how much Dresden, and to some extent his allies, were prepared to sacrifice for Maggie. Yes, Harry had to damage himself to save Maggie, and how much it cost his allies too (particularly Molly). But the cost to Maggie would have been worse and perhaps the cost to the world with no Harry Dresden or even Ebenezar (or even others), not to mention the cost of the Red Court winning and getting stronger. Yes, Harry condemned many to terrible fates by taking on Bianca. But that war was always going to happen regardless of Harry - he was merely the catalyst but they wanted to fight and destroy the White Council regardless, it simply came down to timing. Even Uriel's choice to give his grace to Michael Carpenter may have had extended consequences elsewhere. But given the choice between allowing bad things to happen and fighting the good fight (regardless of how hopeless it might be) I think it's clear which one is worth choosing and why.

Not everything has an "any means necessary is justified" rule. That's a philosophical position, not an objective one, and perhaps one that might be a difference in view points for some people. I don't know what your position is on that so I am not saying that is how you feel, just to be clear.

As practical as the approach of the Denarians might be (in your theory), it still wouldn't justify their actions. The nature of their actions is often intrinsically evil, especially in the Dresden Files. Jim has confirmed there is Right and Wrong. The only way you could flip it all would be to invert what appears to be the current moral standards of the series, and declare that good is bad and vice-versa, or that there are no moral actions or positions (in an objective sense). Not talking about the real world here btw. But I don't see that being likely either.

I do agree that it is extremely interesting why the Fallen chose to rebel in the Dresden Files, and I am hoping Jim will do something a bit more interesting than "Lucifer is bad" or "Lucifer is jealous of humans" etc. I think that's been done to death. Something more along the lines of the series, like humanity being dangerous to the universe as a whole and Lucifer trying to eliminate them is interesting. Or trying to become TWG because the current one isn't so great (either in Lucifer's opinion or perhaps objectively). Or my personal fav, Lucifer is all about freedom and hates the tyranny of predestination.

But it isn't Jim's style to make the Denarians good. He has often mentioned part of why he wrote the series was to portray Christians more fairly as he often saw them portrayed as hypocrites and failures or idiots etc. He wanted characters like Michael who practiced what they preached and lived up to the ideal. Making the Denarians the good guys would fly in the face of everything he is trying to do, or has been trying to do.

Which isn't at all to say the Denarians and the Fallen at large may not think they are acting evilly. Because likely some of them, perhaps many of them, believe that they are doing is the best course of action. Maybe even believe they are moral, or at least martyring themselves by allowing themselves to take the moral hit/the weight of the sin.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 12:53:53 PM by Yuillegan »
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Offline vincentric

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2021, 04:30:45 PM »
We already know the worst outcome that everyone considers in universe, Empty Night, the destruction of all reality.

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2021, 04:36:59 PM »
We already know the worst outcome that everyone considers in universe, Empty Night, the destruction of all reality.
Some people might take that above burning in hell eternally.
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Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2021, 06:57:00 PM »
I've toyed with this idea specific to Nicodemus.

Nic is Harry's personal enemy and foil- right down to gaining a daughter in his life (Cold Days he was out of commission, in the interim she was at the Carpenter's) when Nic loses his own. Nic falls as Harry rises.

And they hate each other.

Story wise, that's made for Jim for a final teamup. Exactly what he loves.

The Denarians are not monolithic. Nic and Tessa each head groups; a few like Lasciel are generally (apparently) solo artists who only rarely play with the band.

Tessa's group may be classic evil- Jim played DnD, chaotic evil.

Nic's group appears to be lawful evil.

Mab needed a favor from Anduriel for which he loaned her Nic early in her career as Winter Queen, per WoJ. That favor is repaid in Skin Game. Mab's job is holding against Outside. Implication: Nic (at least) learns about Outside.

Mab's only been Winter Queen a millenium, tops. Nic last worked with Tessa on the Black Death. Posit: Nic stopped doing "evil" and became busy trying to stop the Apocalypse.

Alternate: Nic hosts Nemesis and is the true big bad of the series. He and Nemesis both used the same quote about apocalypse being a state of mind. In that case, Tessa becomes an ally at the end, due to knowing Nic so well.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2021, 08:28:31 PM »
Quote
Mab needed a favor from Anduriel for which he loaned her Nic early in her career as Winter Queen, per WoJ. That favor is repaid in Skin Game. Mab's job is holding against Outside. Implication: Nic (at least) learns about Outside.

But can it really be considered a favor repaid?  Mab used it to set Nic up for a fall.

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2021, 09:10:02 PM »
But can it really be considered a favor repaid?  Mab used it to set Nic up for a fall.
It was not Mab’s fault that Nicodemus betrayed Harry. Harry did exactly what Nicodemus said and payed Mab’s debts.

The setup was just a precaution in case Nicodemus betrayed Mab and her knight.

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Offline Shift8

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2021, 12:13:13 AM »
I agree that a poorly applied philosophy or ideology can be quite awful, although I'd point out that the definition of "poorly applied" is somewhat malleable in that context. Such things by nature are open to interpretation, and everyone already interprets things slightly (sometimes not so slightly) differently. Yes, Kant's position (although he developed it from earlier ideas) was that lying was intrinsically bad - but he also wasn't a pillar of moral virtue himself, so I tend to treat it with a healthy dose of scepticism. I'm not sure which character you're referring to...although if you mean Uriel I'd point out that his real objection to lying was not from mortals, but the Fallen as their lies have far larger and more dangerous impacts (and the Fallen know better).

However, I am not sure you have considered fully the implications of your theory. Your theory assumes the worst possible outcome is victory of the Outsiders and their establishment of Hell on Earth and eventually the destruction of all (or something along those lines). I disagree. The worst possible outcome is far more horrible, in my opinion, and I believe this is why the Angels of Heaven spend so much of their resources fighting the Fallen.

Hypothetically, the worst possible outcome is that in attempting and "succeeding" to save Earth (and the Universe), humanity sacrifices it's own soul to do so. By that I mean for example, let's say Dresden had to murder and/or defile all of Earth's children in order to save the world. I don't see how that would be a world worth saving after that. Extrapolate that problem to not just Dresden having to do it, but all the adults and the problem get's infinitely worse. There are scenarios and outcomes that mean the world wouldn't be worth saving, as in attempting to keep humanity alive we would lose our humanity. We wouldn't have saved anything really. We would have created a Hell on Earth all on our own. Humanity is no so special that they should survive at the expense of all else, including their own humanity. I seem to remember the Bible having some rather extreme measures when humanity got too awful for it's own good, and it's hardly the only religion with such things.

Think about how much Uriel was prepared to sacrifice for the sake of at least ONE soul, if not several. Think about how much Dresden was prepared to sacrifice so Susan wouldn't be left at the mercy of Bianca. Think about how much Dresden, and to some extent his allies, were prepared to sacrifice for Maggie. Yes, Harry had to damage himself to save Maggie, and how much it cost his allies too (particularly Molly). But the cost to Maggie would have been worse and perhaps the cost to the world with no Harry Dresden or even Ebenezar (or even others), not to mention the cost of the Red Court winning and getting stronger. Yes, Harry condemned many to terrible fates by taking on Bianca. But that war was always going to happen regardless of Harry - he was merely the catalyst but they wanted to fight and destroy the White Council regardless, it simply came down to timing. Even Uriel's choice to give his grace to Michael Carpenter may have had extended consequences elsewhere. But given the choice between allowing bad things to happen and fighting the good fight (regardless of how hopeless it might be) I think it's clear which one is worth choosing and why.

Not everything has an "any means necessary is justified" rule. That's a philosophical position, not an objective one, and perhaps one that might be a difference in view points for some people. I don't know what your position is on that so I am not saying that is how you feel, just to be clear.

As practical as the approach of the Denarians might be (in your theory), it still wouldn't justify their actions. The nature of their actions is often intrinsically evil, especially in the Dresden Files. Jim has confirmed there is Right and Wrong. The only way you could flip it all would be to invert what appears to be the current moral standards of the series, and declare that good is bad and vice-versa, or that there are no moral actions or positions (in an objective sense). Not talking about the real world here btw. But I don't see that being likely either.

I do agree that it is extremely interesting why the Fallen chose to rebel in the Dresden Files, and I am hoping Jim will do something a bit more interesting than "Lucifer is bad" or "Lucifer is jealous of humans" etc. I think that's been done to death. Something more along the lines of the series, like humanity being dangerous to the universe as a whole and Lucifer trying to eliminate them is interesting. Or trying to become TWG because the current one isn't so great (either in Lucifer's opinion or perhaps objectively). Or my personal fav, Lucifer is all about freedom and hates the tyranny of predestination.

But it isn't Jim's style to make the Denarians good. He has often mentioned part of why he wrote the series was to portray Christians more fairly as he often saw them portrayed as hypocrites and failures or idiots etc. He wanted characters like Michael who practiced what they preached and lived up to the ideal. Making the Denarians the good guys would fly in the face of everything he is trying to do, or has been trying to do.

Which isn't at all to say the Denarians and the Fallen at large may not think they are acting evilly. Because likely some of them, perhaps many of them, believe that they are doing is the best course of action. Maybe even believe they are moral, or at least martyring themselves by allowing themselves to take the moral hit/the weight of the sin.

I was referring to Micheal. One of many examples is his absurd notion that Harry did something bad in Grave Peril when he lied to Lea so he could get close enough to splatter her with the ghost dust. Micheal has been softening this kind of crappy ethical thinking over the course of the series, but he especially early on he was prone to a fanatical ontological morality system that is very similar the White Councils view on the laws of magic (ie Morgan). They are different ontological morality systems with different principals, but similar levels of stupidity.

As to the issue of creating a hell on earth in the process, yes thats a risk. But if it really is that case that practically speaking the Denarian plan is the only good one, then it is still the best choice by virtue of giving at least some possibility for success. It also seems empirically unlikely that anything the Denarians do could result in something equivalent to the Christian view of hell being visited to Earth via an actual apocalypse.

As to your point about their actions being unquestionably evil, this sort of goes out the window (potentially) if the stakes are really as high as this theory states. We dont know any of this, which is why their actions seems bonkers, but if we make the assumption that their plan is the only one likely to succeed (or even the only possible means of success) than it becomes rather easily justified.
     This is because once you make the stakes of failure "everyone goes to hell if you lose" morality in the typical sense goes haywire. Making moral comparisons here starts to enter absurd land, but the choice is pretty clear even if completely depressing and terrible to think about. Nothing that any acts of evil you commit could do to harm people would matter because if you didnt do them, those people would be harmed unimaginably worse by the breach of the outsiders.

Let me put this another way. We assume that the actual empirical reality of the Dresden Files is such that a Denarian plane to cause human suffering so that the WG loses power through losing followers is the only practical plan. Practical in this case meaning that it is the only plan that has a morally acceptable success chance giving the potential downside of losing. This leaves only two scenarios.

Option 1: Cause Human suffering, and maybe the WG loses enough followers and is weakened in the same fashion as the old cthulu gods. Some people as a result will suffer temporarily, and some will die.

Option 2: Dont do the plan, lose. Everyone who exists in the world will receive such suffering as to wish they had never existed.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2021, 12:22:28 AM »
It's my crazy headcannon that during the BAT, when things look desperate, the Denarians will join forces against the Outsiders. The Denarians lose if the Outsiders destroy reality. They rebelled against The White God. They don't want to destroy reality, they just don't want to serve TWG.
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Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2021, 04:01:03 AM »
It's my crazy headcannon that during the BAT, when things look desperate, the Denarians will join forces against the Outsiders. The Denarians lose if the Outsiders destroy reality. They rebelled against The White God. They don't want to destroy reality, they just don't want to serve TWG.

That isn't clear for all of them, there are regrets, perhaps repressed, but they are there.  That was the case with Lasciel, when she fell in love with Harry, her regrets came to the surface, not making music, seeing the beauty of the inside of a church, all came to the surface and played a part in changing her shadow to Lash.  However that very thing enraged Lasciel and she became worse than ever.  But if she has regrets, I cannot help but think there are others with them as well.   

Offline LostInTime

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2021, 06:10:31 PM »
Harry hurt Uriel by calling him "Uri". The 'el' portion of their names means 'of God'. If verbally omitting 'of God' from his name hurts Uriel, imagine how being deprived of being with God hurts the Denarians. I can't imagine how any of them are still sane after thousands of years without him.
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