Author Topic: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones  (Read 7644 times)

Offline LostInTime

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How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« on: April 21, 2021, 06:09:36 PM »
Forgive me if this is kind of obvious, but...

Harry made a deal with Lea for power prior to the series beginning.

In Summer Knight, Lea traded the debt to Mab. Mab and Harry negotiated the debt could be settled by Harry performing three services. Mab states that the first favor is to find the killer of the Summer Knight.

At the end of Summer Knight, Mab offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry refused, two more favors were still owed.

In Small Favor, Mab tried to collect on the second favor. Harry balked. Mab again offered to cancel the debt in exchange for Harry taking up the Winter Knight mantle. Harry performed the favor, finding Marcone. At this point, Harry still owed Mab one favors.

In Changes, Harry approaches Mab with a deal to accept the Winter Knight mantle in exchange for her healing his broken back, give him power to rescue his daughter, and that she not force him to kill anyone he loved. Harry fails to mention anything about the third and final favor.

Mab can't order the Winter Knight to kill, say, Molly. (Like she's ordered the Winter Knight to kill Maeve) But she could require Harry Dresden to kill the Winter Lady in order to fulfill the third favor.

Sword of Damocles, indeed.

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Offline Arjan

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 06:31:27 PM »
Except maybe killing the winter lady is a big thing. Too big for just one favor.
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Offline Regenbogen

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 06:35:07 PM »
Didn't Mab agree to the condition that she wouldn't make him harm those he cares for?

Offline LostInTime

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »
Didn't Mab agree to the condition that she wouldn't make him harm those he cares for?
She won't tell the Winter Knight to kill the people Harry loves. Harry Dresden, Wizard, owes her a favor, free of encumbering conditions. According to the fae rules, if Harry wanted that sort of condition attached to the favors, he should have specified it when the conditions of the debt were arranged.

Never deal with the fae.
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Offline Regenbogen

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 08:12:17 PM »
@ LostInTime
I've re-read the passage in Changes chapter 30:

Quote
“You know my price, mortal. Speak it.” “You want me to become the Winter Knight,” I whispered. A laugh, both merry and cold, bubbled beneath her response. “Yes.” “I will,” I said. “With a condition.” “Speak it.” “That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”

Harry just told Mab those were the conditions. She never actually agreed to anything he said. Neither through words nor through gestures or eye-blinking.
Meaning she can tell him to do anything she wants.

And therefore has no need to use the last favour to order him to kill anyone. She can just command him as her knight.
But I agree, there is the last favour left open. She only said in the previous books, that she would consider the favours done, if hr agreed to become the Winter Knight instead of doing the favour.
As he became the Knight for his own reasons, there was no favour deal involved. Just the time, power and knowledge to save his child and the restoration of his body. And she did not even agree to those either. But she granted part of his requests. So imho she fooled him into thinking she granted all requests.

As long as Harry remains Winter Knight, Mab has no need to call in the last favour. But once he gets out of her service (and I do think, he will figure out how to do so without dying, someday), there will be the last favour for her to call in.
Or she could sell it to somebody else like Lea sold it to her.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 08:18:15 PM »
To say nothing of the fact that she could always order Molly to kill Harry. Harry might not have any choice but to kill in self-defense.

My theory is that there's another influence outside the fae courts that stops the fae queens from killing mortals.
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Offline Regenbogen

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 08:42:43 PM »
It must be some kind of power restriction, probably the same one that keeps them from telling lies.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2021, 12:50:33 AM »
Think of the fae queens as a hostile life form. They're going to make a weakness appear as a strength. If they are blocked from doing something directly, they'll find a workaround or bargain with another entity with no such restriction to do the deed for them.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2021, 12:48:36 PM »
Harry just told Mab those were the conditions. She never actually agreed to anything he said. Neither through words nor through gestures or eye-blinking.
Meaning she can tell him to do anything she wants.

Yeah, that's the bigger danger to him. With the original three favors, he was smart enough to include the right to turn down job requests that would fulfil one of them. With the Knight gig, she never actually accepted his terms against killing loved ones.

Of course, if she ordered "kill Molly" for no good reason, he's more likely to say "Nah" and choose to die for insubordination.

Offline Arjan

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2021, 03:07:59 PM »
At the moment Mab only wants Molly killed if she dies herself. Mab has long term good expectations of Molly but she thinks Molly is not ready.

But that makes it difficult to order Harry because Molly is then Queen and Mab will be dead. So Mab has to convince Harry. To take it seriously.
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Offline Mira

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2021, 03:13:56 PM »
Quote
Yeah, that's the bigger danger to him. With the original three favors, he was smart enough to include the right to turn down job requests that would fulfil one of them. With the Knight gig, she never actually accepted his terms against killing loved ones.

Did she not?  I think Jim has left that one rather vague on purpose.  No, she didn't say out loud that she accepted Harry's terms.  However on the other hand, could Harry have been made her Knight if she hadn't?  Because then it would be a lie by omission on her part, or a trick, which would again be a lie, in my opinion, thus voiding any deal, freeing Harry from being her Knight. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2021, 03:21:35 PM »
Harry stated a condition. She did not disagree or negotiated about it so it is in. It is not an important thing because loved one usually means ally and Mab is not interested in making Harry weaker.
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Offline Mira

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2021, 05:11:53 PM »
Harry stated a condition. She did not disagree or negotiated about it so it is in. It is not an important thing because loved one usually means ally and Mab is not interested in making Harry weaker.

She isn't, she also knows Harry's feelings towards Molly from his reaction to her becoming Winter Lady.   In that light I am not sure what she was thinking when she told him to kill Molly if she died in Battle Ground.  She ought to know better and have a lot more information and very good reasons before she'd expect Harry to even consider obeying that order. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2021, 05:56:41 PM »
She isn't, she also knows Harry's feelings towards Molly from his reaction to her becoming Winter Lady.   In that light I am not sure what she was thinking when she told him to kill Molly if she died in Battle Ground.  She ought to know better and have a lot more information and very good reasons before she'd expect Harry to even consider obeying that order.
It was not an order. It was more like a statement about what she thought should be done in such a case. She explained it which is a big thing, she did not do that in the past. It does impress the gravity of the situation on Harry. It makes him think about what to do.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: How Mab gets Harry to kill loved ones
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2021, 05:28:46 AM »
He could still refuse, but I don't know what would happen.  He avoided Leah when he owed her.  Mab might be able to force his body to act, but I don't know if she could order him to do it, and he would be unable to not do it. 
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