Author Topic: Are Fae Queens still mortals?  (Read 11053 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2021, 04:17:08 AM »
I might have missed it, but when did Jim say he was using the Diablo creation myth? Or are you saying that's just your guess that he did?

It's a guess.  I think it for a couple of reasons.  The first is he's into those type of games, and the second is he like to take an idea, and put his own spin on it. 
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2021, 05:46:55 AM »
It's a guess.  I think it for a couple of reasons.  The first is he's into those type of games, and the second is he like to take an idea, and put his own spin on it.
He at the very least is drawing on the Christian ideas about Creation, he was schooled in it for a very long time. But it is entirely possible he is combining that with something like Diablo or D&D.

In any case, I think it's rather like Tolkien in that Gods, Angels, and perhaps even Outsiders share the same origins in a way. They all come from before Creation. They are beings older than Time itself. Whether TWG or some other being created them is entirely unknown, although I'd be prepared to bet that at the very least the Angels (or their grace anyway) comes from TWG. The thing is if they all come from before Creation, then which beings were first becomes an entirely redundant question.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2021, 06:21:09 AM »
He at the very least is drawing on the Christian ideas about Creation, he was schooled in it for a very long time. But it is entirely possible he is combining that with something like Diablo or D&D.

In any case, I think it's rather like Tolkien in that Gods, Angels, and perhaps even Outsiders share the same origins in a way. They all come from before Creation. They are beings older than Time itself. Whether TWG or some other being created them is entirely unknown, although I'd be prepared to bet that at the very least the Angels (or their grace anyway) comes from TWG. The thing is if they all come from before Creation, then which beings were first becomes an entirely redundant question.
Jim is probably using all creation myths he knows in some way and they are all true in the Dresdenverse. That includes the Norse one and Lovecraft.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2021, 10:31:35 AM »
Jim is probably using all creation myths he knows in some way and they are all true in the Dresdenverse. That includes the Norse one and Lovecraft.
Indeed, that was his intention I believe. He wanted to find a way to make them all work in a respectful way.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2021, 12:43:43 PM »
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But you miss the point. The Elves of Middle Earth never had any sort of special invulnerability, apart from the fact their bodies didn't age. First Age Elves were more like Faeries and were strong enough in some cases to fight Balrogs (Fallen Angels/Lesser Spirits), and even the Tolkien equivalent of Archangels/Gods/Greater Spirits (Valar) such as when Fingolfin fought Morgoth and lost. The Elves while of a different race, were not the same as Ainur. Ainur were the spirits made of the Greater (Valar) and the Lesser (Maiar). This difference between beings of the world like Elves, Men and Dwarves and the Ainur is the same difference between mortals and immortals in the Dresden Files.

The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2021, 02:00:53 PM »
The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.
Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father  ;D
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2021, 03:11:41 PM »
Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father  ;D

My point.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2021, 03:18:06 AM »
Uriel was duped by Murphy’s father  ;D
Was he? I mean, that really depends if you believe that Uriel didn't manipulate events to ensure Harry went on his little mission. Which is precisely Uriel's MO being Heaven's spymaster.

The Elves of the First Age were still capable of being duped.
As in...they were not immortal just lead to believe they were? Or were you making a different point?
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2021, 04:32:21 AM »
Was he? I mean, that really depends if you believe that Uriel didn't manipulate events to ensure Harry went on his little mission. Which is precisely Uriel's MO being Heaven's spymaster.
It was that or he was lying. Pick your choice.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2021, 05:00:14 AM »
It was that or he was lying. Pick your choice.
That's a bit unsubtle for Uriel. I think he's a bit more like the Faeries, conveniently omitting certain information and even setting up others knowing they will act a certain way. I mean, he doesn't need to tell Jack Murphy to push Dresden. He knows who Jack is and what he is like, and he knows who Dresden is and what he is like. He sets up a situation knowing there is a very high chance of Harry being nudged into going back. Think about how the Fallen know how to lie so well. They spent eons watching humanity grow, and clearly from a multiverse level perspective - not just the Denarians either (who might actually be a bit more limited. They can see multiple possibilities which allow them to make very accurate predictions of the future and human behaviour. Uriel isn't a white knight. He plays around in the shadows. He is probably a bit more grey than most Angels, because that's what his job requires.

He didn't lie AND he wasn't duped by Murphy's father (which would assume you can dupe a being that exists in multiple timelines and exist both in the past, present and future).

He didn't need to lie. And I doubt he can be duped, at least not in those kind of circumstances.

So he set up his dominos and watched things play out.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2021, 11:13:26 AM »
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As in...they were not immortal just lead to believe they were? Or were you making a different point?

They still could be killed, even in the First Age.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2021, 10:45:40 PM »
They still could be killed, even in the First Age.
Yeah I'm not disputing that. The main difference between the Elves of the First Age and those later is those of the First Age came from Valinor, they had the power and were beings of both worlds. It's why Galadriel is so strong, and Glorfindel. Later Elves, those born in Middle Earth didn't have that same might. Glorfindel had killed Balrogs but Legolas Greenleaf never could have done such a task. Yes, they were all able to be killed but there is an intrinsic difference between them. Elves that are of two worlds, and Elves that are mostly just of Middle Earth.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 11:13:44 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2021, 05:12:23 AM »
Yeah I'm not disputing that. The main difference between the Elves of the First Age and those later is those of the First Age came from Valinor, they had the power and were beings of both worlds. It's why Galadriel is so strong, and Glorfindel. Later Elves, those born in Middle Earth didn't have that same might. Glorfindel had killed Balrogs but Legolas Greenleaf never could have done such a task. Yes, they were all able to be killed but there is an intrinsic difference between them. Elves that are of two worlds, and Elves that are far more just of Middle Earth.

Contributing to the tangent: I think it's a matter of potential. Elves who dwelt in Valinor are fully actualized, with all of their spiritual potential realized. Elves born in Middle Earth have to deal with the one-two-three of being born in eroding bodies, having to develop their potential themselves, and being more generations removed from the beginning.

I've long wondered if the total "spirit" of all elves is flat- that elves give of their own fea to have children, inherently making children less than their parents- with the exception of Feanor, who consumed all of his mother plus his share of his father.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2021, 11:15:36 AM »
Contributing to the tangent: I think it's a matter of potential. Elves who dwelt in Valinor are fully actualized, with all of their spiritual potential realized. Elves born in Middle Earth have to deal with the one-two-three of being born in eroding bodies, having to develop their potential themselves, and being more generations removed from the beginning.

I've long wondered if the total "spirit" of all elves is flat- that elves give of their own fea to have children, inherently making children less than their parents- with the exception of Feanor, who consumed all of his mother plus his share of his father.
That's an interesting theory. And it fits a bit. Considering part of the whole deal with the Elves immortality was that once their physical bodies died they died for good, whereas Men got to live on in the Halls of Mandos (I think).
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2021, 11:35:40 AM »
That's an interesting theory. And it fits a bit. Considering part of the whole deal with the Elves immortality was that once their physical bodies died they died for good, whereas Men got to live on in the Halls of Mandos (I think).

They got to move on "beyond,"  what ever that was, Tolkien never explained what that was.