Author Topic: Are Fae Queens still mortals?  (Read 11000 times)

Offline LostInTime

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Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« on: April 13, 2021, 12:38:45 AM »
I’m not sure I’ve gotten all of this sorted out in my head, so I’m going to lay it out here. Feel free to jump on and correct any inaccuracies.
Back in pre-history, The White God told all of the other gods to vamoose. Give up your immortality and live on, or keep it and have nothing more to do with mortals.

Someone, probably Hecate, maybe the Norns, instead of giving up their mortality, sponsored the fae. The fae, who had historically been the foot soldiers defending the Outer Gates, the keepers of the Outer Gates got a promotion. Their sponsor split their immortality into at least 8 mantles, 6 immortal, two not. Set up the two fae courts, one, Winter, to lead the defense of the Outer Gates, and one, Summer, to defend reality against the Winter court.

But, and this is important, The two tripartite divisions that are the fae queens, are still immortal. And The White God’s edict still holds true, their power was ordered to stop messing with humanity, so they cannot truck with mortals. In Summer Knight it’s described as fae queens cannot directly interfere with or kill anyone who isn’t attached to the courts through birthright or bargain. They they can do so indirectly with trickery, guile or glamor. Mortals, however, can still deal with them, since free will trumps everything. Free will allows mortals to deal with Outsiders, it certainly allows them to deal with fae.

It’s my theory, although not confirmed, that the fae queens must always be mortal when endowed with a mantle. Titania and Mab are sisters. Mab revealed to Harry that she was mortal once. Logically, that means so was Titania. At best they were changelings, but unless they’d chosen fae before they were endowed with their mantles, they would still be considered mortal. Aurora, Maeve and Sarissa were their daughters, arguably making them changelings, but if my theory that follows is correct, that’s not so cut and dried. Lily was a changeling, but she hadn’t selected her fae heritage yet when Aurora endowed her with the Summer Knight mantle and turned her into a statue. When Aurora died, She was endowed with the Summer Lady mantle, while still a mortal, albeit one wearing a mantle. Molly, of course, was fully mortal when she was endowed with the Winter Lady mantle.

The mantles that are not immortal, went to the knights, the hatchet men for the fae courts. These are mortals who the fae can sick on other mortals, to kill or hurt. Because the fae queens are constrained by The White God’s edict. Sure, the knights also will bring the pain to the fae, but what sets them apart from the other fae mantle wearers is their ability to kill mortals.

Run of the mill fae can interact with, kidnap, kill mortals. We saw that all the way back in Restoration of Faith with the troll. Jenny Greenteeth would have killed Billy and allowed Georgia to sleep on. Phobophages, Malks, Rawbones, Trolls, you name it, they have all threatened or outright killed mortals all the way through the books.

But the fae queens can’t.

In Summer Knight, Slate, in cahoots with Aurora, kills Ronald Rheul, the Summer Knight. No problem there, knights are supposed to kill mortals. Aurora buys it at the hands of Harry’s minions. Essentially her death is at Harry’s hands. He might have been doing the slicing and dicing with the bane, but with fae logic, he was responsible. The run of the mill fae that wielded the box cutters, again, had no issue killing her.
Loyd Slate’s betrayal of Mab is also revealed in Summer Knight. But, instead of killing him and allowing the Knight’s mantle to flow back to her, she takes him prisoner and tortures him for years.

In Changes, Mab doesn’t kill Loyd Slate, Harry does.

Fast forward to Cold Days. Harry believes that Mab is trying to kill him over 77 days. But most of those attempts are through predators, traps or fae. She only tries once with a pillow and once with a shotgun. Harry, pre-Winter Knight, could have protected himself from a shotgun.
Mab orders Harry to kill Maeve because Mab believes Maeve is Nfected. Mab had previously cured Leanansidhe of Nfection. So, why didn’t Mab just do the same thing to Maeve, her own daughter in order to spare her life?

Because, even if Maeve was wearing a fae queen mantle, she’s still mortal. The mantle makes her into a high sidhe. The mantle is what doesn’t allow her to lie, normally. The mantle gives her the vulnerability to the bane. Just as the mantle endows her with immortality. And Kringle tells us later that mantles can be worn, exchanged or discarded. Which would imply that in order to exchange or discard a mantle, you have to possess free will.

The Nfection counters the mantle and allows Maeve to lie. It also allows her to kill Lily. Maeve is, in turn, killed by Karin.
In Peace Talks and Battle Ground, the Fomor servitors don’t get the mortal protection because they are involved with the Fomor, who are involved with the fae courts. Molly, Maeve, Sarissa and Titania are allowed to kill them with impunity.

In The Good People, Mab encourages Molly to let her mortality die. Molly responds by getting in Mab's face. Instead of bouncing her head off a solid object as Mab has done with Harry in the past, she accedes to Molly's wishes and lets her be.

I can’t think of any time in any of the books or short stories where a fae queen has killed or injured a mortal that is not involved in some way with the fae courts, either directly or through the Unseelie Accords. I think there's a strong possibility that the fae queens, with the possible exception of the only original queen, Mother Winter, may all have been, and still are, mortal.

Comments? Corrections? Amplifications? Thoughts?
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2021, 01:33:21 PM »

  Apparently they can be killed on Halloween.  So technically they aren't immortal, or they are but they can be killed under the right conditions.  Kind of like Tolkien's elves, they were immortal unless they were killed.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2021, 03:48:09 PM »
Lea wanted to be cured. She tried it herself but she did not succeed. She went to her queen for aid. Maeve did not want to be cured, Sarissa asked her but without the patient’s cooperation it does not work.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2021, 09:57:17 PM »
Lea wanted to be cured. She tried it herself but she did not succeed. She went to her queen for aid. Maeve did not want to be cured, Sarissa asked her but without the patient’s cooperation it does not work.

But that is about the cure, we are talking about dying.  If Maeve hadn't been shot, she wouldn't of died from Nemesis.  Because it was too late to cure her, she had to be killed.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2021, 12:39:42 AM »
  Apparently they can be killed on Halloween.  So technically they aren't immortal, or they are but they can be killed under the right conditions.  Kind of like Tolkien's elves, they were immortal unless they were killed.
That applies to all immortals, right up to Uriel-level beings. By your definition then, no one is immortal. Mab explains it best in Battle Ground "I am immortal, not eternal". Against powers like the Eye of Balor, or during things like the Halloween Conjunction on Earth, even immortals can be killed. But they are still immortal in most senses, and they certainly are not "mortal" in the way Jim separates the two. Mortals have Free Will, immortals do not - as a general rule. The closer you get to one end of the spectrum the more choices open up or disappear. Even the Angels had Free Will, at least enough to choose to Fall. Free Will is clearly more complex than either you have it or not.

Lost In Time -
I can see how you got there but I don't agree that the Faerie Queens are mortal, now. They may have once been (although we only know that Mab, Sarissa, Aurora, Maeve, Lily, and Molly were for a fact mortal to begin with). I agree that it's likely if Mab were once mortal, Titania likely was too, as probably were their predecessors. Mother Summer then could also then have been mortal by that logic. However, I highly doubt the original Mother Summer was. This is because I believe she was but one half of whatever the original Mother Winter likely was i.e. the greater part of the God(s) that made them.

I think the clue is how Ethniu discusses the Queens etc. She says they are the "new" gods. That gods like her and Odin are the originals. Which makes sense, they didn't start out as mortal. According to the most recent WOJ, the Gods existed (like the Angels...) before Creation. They are essentially beings of energy that humans try to fit into neat physical boxes, and that doesn't really work very well. Beings of that order are immortals, and if they ever had Free Will they didn't have much to begin with OR they mostly chose not to exercise it for many possible reasons - but I think they are like the Angels in that they only have enough Free Will to choose to either be mortal or change into something (like Falling). Perhaps its easiest to think of mortals having a far greater amount of choices to choose from, whereas immortals are incredibly limited to maybe just a few.

Also, I am not sure the Knight Mantles aren't immortal in and of themselves - they just don't grant immortality to the bearer. It's an important distinction. A Knight mantle is energy, so it can't be destroyed (see Summer Knight). But it can be changed into something that makes it useless or different in such a way to be nothing like the original, it can be hoarded, and it can be stolen. I suspect the reason the mantle doesn't grant immortality on the Knight is to do with how the power came to be, and why it was first made, and therefore must have certain limitations already on how much it can change the bearer. Perhaps this is why Harry doesn't really get much of an actual physical upgrade. It's mostly psychic, spiritual...his barriers in his psychology are removed or dampened. Harry isn't super strong, he just feels like it and doesn't feel the pain. I know there are some out there who would argue that no matter how much you remove in the brain a person can't lift 800lbs. Take it up with Jim...I didn't write the series.

On this topic, although slight tangent...Molly didn't have her choice removed entirely when she received the Winter Lady mantle. I think she still has some left, although the more she leans into the mantle the less she has. I suspect the only real choice, the only real way out, is to choose to renounce all the power. Molly even says she could, by stepping out of the circle (in Peace Talks when Harry summons her) and leaving her power behind. But she worries that would be a very bad thing. Maybe it would. But she still CAN do it if she wants to. As Mother Summer says in Cold Days, most never remain themselves under the influence of the mantle. But some do. Maybe it's about how much you choose to lean on the mantle.

It's probably similar to how a person in an Office (like being a King or President etc) is. There is a person that inhabits that Office, but it isn't really the person that has the powers of that Office, it's the Office itself. It's a matter of which hat they are wearing. And the more individuality a person imposes on that Office, the less that Office is really filled. You can be you, or the Office, but you can't wear both hats at the same time. In the military, it is the Office that is saluted (as a rule) not the person in it. So you might hate you commanding officer but you are not saluting him/her you are saluting the rank that they have, the flag on their shoulder.

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In Changes, Mab doesn’t kill Loyd Slate, Harry does.
So Lloyd Slate had already made a bargain with Mab. He is fair game for Mab to kill then. Harry is in the same boat, even well before he becomes Winter Knight.

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Mab had previously cured Leanansidhe of Nfection. So, why didn’t Mab just do the same thing to Maeve, her own daughter in order to spare her life?
This is pretty much explained. Mab won't kill Maeve as she is her daughter, and it appears to be the case that the victim must want to be free of the infection (at least in part) in order to be cured. So far, Lea is the only example of an infected being cured. It is also possible (like with most virus') that once the victim has been infected for too long there is almost no recourse. Mab is left with the option of killing her daughter or letting her roam free. She chooses to get a new Winter Lady.

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In The Good People, Mab encourages Molly to let her mortality die. Molly responds by getting in Mab's face. Instead of bouncing her head off a solid object as Mab has done with Harry in the past, she accedes to Molly's wishes and lets her be.
I don't think it's Molly's mortality that Mab is acceding to as such. I read it from a military perspective i.e. that Molly as Winter Lady had the right to make that decision and even Mab cannot gainsay that decision. It's not Molly's decision that Mab is respecting, but the Winter Lady's (just like I talked about above).
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2021, 12:55:43 AM »
Even Uriel, as skin game showed, can be killed under the right circumstances,
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Offline LostInTime

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2021, 01:09:14 AM »
I'm wondering about the part choice plays in accepting a mantle.

Mother Winter - The only original fae queen. She's going to talk about who the sponsor was and how the mantles were created. Probably not until the BAT.
Mother Summer - Previously the Summer Queen, ascended when the OG Mother Summer retired, abdicated or was killed.
Titania - Current Summer Queen. Previously Summer Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Mab - Current Winter Queen. Previously Winter Lady. We don't know how she got the mantle.
Aurora - Prior Summer Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Maeve - Prior Winter Lady. Nfected. We don't know how she got her mantle.
Lily - Prior Summer Lady, Prior Summer Knight. Aurora forced the Summer Knight mantle upon her. Then when Aurora was killed, she has the Summer Lady mantle forced on her as the closest suitable vessel for fae power.
Sarissa - Current Summer Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Lily was killed.
Molly - Current Winter Lady. Had the mantle forced upon her when Maeve was killed.

Of the three fae queen mantle transitions we've seen in the books, none of them were voluntary. None of the ladies have said, "Sure, give me this power, I want it." Lily didn't even say she wanted the Summer Knight mantle. Which seems inconsistent with Harry accepting the Winter Knight mantle and Fix the Summer Knight, but since Aurora was Nfected at the time, not impossible.

Lily, Sarissa and Molly had no choice. They also had no choice in whether or not they would deal with the fae courts. Sarissa and Lily because they were changelings. Molly because she was apprenticed to Harry, who was already involved with Leanansidhe because of something his mother had done. Again, no choice. Later, when Harry accepted the Winter Knight mantle, Molly had no choice in that. When Harry 'died' Leanansidhe took over training her in Harry's stead, because of the fae court's obligation to fulfill Harry's obligations. Again, no choice on Molly's part. Which led to her being forced to take the Winter Lady mantle as her association with Leanansidhe made her a suitable vessel for fae power.

I feel like I'm missing something, but choice has got to play a part in all of this. It's like choosing to pick up a denarius, or a sword.

(Sigh) Time for a re-read.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2021, 04:21:43 AM »
Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.

Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2021, 01:58:30 PM »
Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.

Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously

Choices have consequences, not always immediate,not always direct, but consequences none the less.  With Molly we have to back up to Proven Guilty and maybe a little before that, choices she made.  No, she didn't choose to be born with talent, but her mother chose not to explain it to her or ask Harry for advice or information.  Result of both Charity and Molly's choices, Molly nearly loses her head and is started down the road to warlockhood.  Harry defends her and chooses to become her master and accept the Doom with her, he goes easy on her in some ways, but mostly keeps her out of trouble.  We are all aware of the choices Harry made, from sex with Susan to setting up his own suicide, it is more complicated in that, if you want we can go into all the spin offs from those choices.. However back to Molly, Harry gone, Molly is adrift, unsupervised, and astray, much of that is her choice to be so.  This draws the attention of Mab and Lea is sent in to offer additional training, again, Molly's choice, she goes along.  Result she is being prepped for, by Mab, to take one of the Lady's jobs in the future.  Apparently that bit wasn't revealed to Molly, nor is it completely clear she'd have agreed to the training if she understood.  Still, informed or not, she chose to train with "Auntie Lea."  Molly did choose to go to the island to help Harry, she didn't choose to become Winter Lady however.   Yes, the important bit is how you handle the consequences of your past choices, but how you handle something is just another way making more choices.  Molly could have blown the job off like Maeve, but she chose to take the job seriously... Choices, she is still human enough to have free will, though so far it appears the Lady's mantle bell can't be unrung, even if she wanted it to be.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2021, 03:48:52 PM »
Also you can question the value of an uninformed choice. If you know so little that you may as well just throw dice then choice is not really a choice.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2021, 04:04:52 PM »
Oh and she did not attract the attention of Mab, she did not need to. Mab had an obligation to Harry and Lea had to teach Molly. The Sidhe know what their obligations are. The old style contract between teacher and pupil probably gave Lea the duty to force Molly if she did not cooperate.

So she could refuse but I do not think that it would make any difference apart from making her life more difficult.
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Offline bigdangmoose

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2021, 05:20:46 PM »
Wasn't there something going around a while back that Jim said that Molly had caught Mab's attention back in PG, specifically when they are in Arctus Tor
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2021, 05:41:55 PM »
Wasn't there something going around a while back that Jim said that Molly had caught Mab's attention back in PG, specifically when they are in Arctus Tor

Yes.

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Also you can question the value of an uninformed choice. If you know so little that you may as well just throw dice then choice is not really a choice.
Informed or uninformed, choices still have consequences, deciding to "throw the dice," is still a choice.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2021, 07:16:00 PM »
Informed or uninformed, choices still have consequences, deciding to "throw the dice," is still a choice.
And maybe if you sacrifice a goat to Fortuna it is even a better choice. But it defeats the argument that everything is because of your own choices as a moral argument. The answer is then: So What? That only works if you make a moral choice and for that you need information.

What choice did she make to become the winter Lady? It is not something as clear as a red court half vampire deciding to drink some blood. It is a complex set of choices made by several people with not enough information. But the final choice was not hers. It was the summer mantle who chose Sarissa in stead of her despite everything Mab wanted and tried to do.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are Fae Queens still mortals?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2021, 09:01:18 PM »
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And maybe if you sacrifice a goat to Fortuna it is even a better choice. But it defeats the argument that everything is because of your own choices as a moral argument. The answer is then: So What? That only works if you make a moral choice and for that you need information.

Why does it have to be a "moral choice" to count?  You can make a choice without thinking but that puts someone else in a position where they have to make a moral choice.  So your answer of "so what" is the answer a sociopath would give.
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What choice did she make to become the winter Lady? It is not something as clear as a red court half vampire deciding to drink some blood. It is a complex set of choices made by several people with not enough information. But the final choice was not hers. It was the summer mantle who chose Sarissa in stead of her despite everything Mab wanted and tried to do.

But her choices got her the point where she was in position to be possessed by the mantle of the Winter Lady.  Totally informed choices?  No, but how many choices do we make on a daily bases that are fully informed?  We often make uninformed choices because we choose to, it is the easiest to do and seem harmless, only sometimes they are not.  That is where the expression, "looking back you can see things with 20/20 vision."  "If only," is another one, as my old father used to say, "if is half of life."  Informed verses uninformed choices, to quote you, "so what?"  Choices are choices..