Forced empathy

[groinkick]

A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.

I disagree with this, and so do the books.  Wardens aren't blood thirsty killers.  They actually often put themselves in great danger to take the warlock alive for the purpose of trial.  Is Carlos "eager" to kill?  Was Morgan?  What appears as eagerness is nothing more than battle hardened people who have experienced battles, and seen just what black magic can do.  They do what the do because they must, not because they enjoy it which is what eagerness suggests. 

[Arjan]

I disagree with this, and so do the books.  Wardens aren't blood thirsty killers.  They actually often put themselves in great danger to take the warlock alive for the purpose of trial.  Is Carlos "eager" to kill?  Was Morgan?  What appears as eagerness is nothing more than battle hardened people who have experienced battles, and seen just what black magic can do.  They do what the do because they must, not because they enjoy it which is what eagerness suggests.

They think they must. And the Merlin was quite eager to kill and to get done with the formalities as soon as possible. The council does not believe in second chances, the knights do.

[groinkick]

They think they must. And the Merlin was quite eager to kill and to get done with the formalities as soon as possible. The council does not believe in second chances, the knights do.

The Knights aren't facing what the Council is.  Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed?  That would be apples to apples.  You don't get reformed from Black Magic.  It's with you forever, unlike a Coin.  Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps.  Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.

[Mira]

The Knights aren't facing what the Council is.  Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed?  That would be apples to apples.  You don't get reformed from Black Magic.  It's with you forever, unlike a Coin.  Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps.  Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.

But do Black Court Vamps even have souls anymore?  After all they are the walking dead.  No, Knights do not give second chances to Denarians who don't give up their coin, but neither do they kill them out right unless they have to. 

Wardens are not blood thirsty killers, however they don't hesitate in the case of most warlocks.

[Arjan]

The Knights aren't facing what the Council is.  Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed?

Sure. Michael was very patient with Harry and Lasciel. Gave second chances to Nicodemus and so on.

  That would be apples to apples.  You don't get reformed from Black Magic. 

That is not true. Even the white council doesn’t always think so otherwise they would not have that whole construction with the sword of Damocles and so on. There is always free will. It is just extremely difficult and the council usually does not want to take the risk. But people like the gatekeeper did approve what Harry was doing for Molly.

It's with you forever, unlike a Coin.  Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps.  Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.

Black court vampires are not human anymore, they have no free will. They don’t even have souls. This is really comparing apples with oranges.

A warlock is still a human being.

[groinkick]

That is not true. Even the white council doesn’t always think so otherwise they would not have that whole construction with the sword of Damocles and so on.

It absolutely is true.  The corruption from the black magic is permanent.  Sure they have free will, but the corruption will always be there.  The person can try to improve themselves, but that corruption will be with them.  The Council has "special circumstances", like self defense, but that's about it.  Molly basically got lucky because Harry took the risk of accepting responsibility for her, and her father was a Knight. 

If the Council had many many more wardens, and not stretched thin because of all the other stuff going on in the world, then I think they could afford to be more merciful.  Giving more people a chance to work to improve themselves (even with the corruption there).  The problem is they don't.  A single warlock can do an insane amount of damage.  Look what Eb did to Ortega's place...  Eb has killed hundreds of people with the wave of his hand.  I could only imagine if 13 of them got together......  The Council isn't willing to take that risk, and although I can see where you're  coming from, I can see where the White Council is too.

A warlock is still a human being.

So was Hitler

[Dina]

So was Hitler

So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?

I do agree about the problem of few wardens and dangerous warlocks, but I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.

[Mira]

So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?

I do agree about the problem of few wardens and dangerous warlocks, but I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.

Yes, and redeemable.  Even Hitler, had he made some different choices when young, still would have been a charismatic psychopath, but perhaps a less dangerous one.  However this is where choices become very complex, because it wasn't just his choices, but those around him choosing to blindly follow a charismatic psychopath, and do horrible things.

[Arjan]

It absolutely is true.  The corruption from the black magic is permanent.  Sure they have free will, but the corruption will always be there.  The person can try to improve themselves, but that corruption will be with them.  The Council has "special circumstances", like self defense, but that's about it.  Molly basically got lucky because Harry took the risk of accepting responsibility for her, and her father was a Knight. 

She had politics on her side but that wouldn't be enough if it was really a black and white thing.

Age also plays a role. The younger they are the less fixed they are.

[Mira]

She had politics on her side but that wouldn't be enough if it was really a black and white thing.

Age also plays a role. The younger they are the less fixed they are.

Yes, and no, for the most part one would think the younger the talented are the more redeemable.  Then again, it may depend on how far down the slippery slope they have already slid.  A thirteen year old can be a bully by nature, or even an eleven or twelve year old, not knowing any better and discovering that they have power to force others into complying with them, they could be already too far gone by the time they are found out.

[groinkick]

So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?

No, because Hitler as a child hadn't done anything while a warlock already has.  I mean if the first law is violated for example, they have already murdered someone.  Three of the other laws are where you have basically raped someone's mind or body, causing permanent damage of some sort depending on how much you'd done.  The other laws are basically getting caught messing with weapons of mass destruction (messing with Time, Outsiders).

The Council does these things because they know it's just too easy for a person to abuse magic.  Wizards have an unfair advantage over roughly 99.999999999% of the population.  The expression power tends to corrupt comes to mind, and once you've abused that power, you're likely to do so again.  The Council's laws aren't perfect, and I agree that it's unfair in a lot of ways...  But it's pretty difficult to monitor someone who uses magic, and ensure they aren't abusing it.  Morgan was an incredibly gifted wizard, and a great deal of his energies were spent watching Dresden...  Time wasted where he could have been defending others for example. 

I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.

It's true that Eb is head and shoulders above most wizards, however Jim said that one of the things that makes warlocks so dangerous it that magic is about belief, and because they are basically insane, they can do some really scary, and crazy stuff.  Their insanity makes them capable of really destructive magic.  Look at the Asian teen who was beheaded.  He had absolutely zero magical training, none.  Yet he was making his own family members commit suicide with mind control.  Imagine what he could have been doing with another 10 or 20  or 50 years of knowledge, experience, and training.  That's what the Council is afraid of.  Someone who's smart enough to avoid detection, and gaining that experience.  That's why they stop them before they can get to that level. 

[Dina]

Yes, I understand that, groinkick. As long as we agree that the system is sometimes unfair.
I have a feeling Harry will find a way to change things in the future. Perhaps one of the weapons on his arsenal (or even a prisoner) can reduce the power level of warlocks, thus making them less dangerous and allowing them to keep living. Or something, this was just a guess.

[groinkick]

Yes, I understand that, groinkick. As long as we agree that the system is sometimes unfair.
I have a feeling Harry will find a way to change things in the future. Perhaps one of the weapons on his arsenal (or even a prisoner) can reduce the power level of warlocks, thus making them less dangerous and allowing them to keep living. Or something, this was just a guess.

Of course it's unfair.  I think another way of keeping track of trouble makers would be to craft those cuffs like Nicodemus used.  Have it like an ankle cuff or something.  If they leave it on, they will be ok.  Remove it, and use magic, and they won't like what happens.

[Arjan]

Of course it's unfair.  I think another way of keeping track of trouble makers would be to craft those cuffs like Nicodemus used.  Have it like an ankle cuff or something.  If they leave it on, they will be ok.  Remove it, and use magic, and they won't like what happens.

Except that you will create a group of very resentful people who can be used against the council by anyone who manages to free them.

[groinkick]

Except that you will create a group of very resentful people who can be used against the council by anyone who manages to free them.

Off with their heads it is then.