Forced empathy

[TheCuriousFan]

This is mostly complete guesswork but it feels right to me so fuck it.

In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.

I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.

And back in Peace Talks there was a similar but far more forceful mechanism shown as part of Demonreach.

“Part of the process of being taken into the cells is …” I took a deep breath. “You suffer the pain you’ve inflicted on others,” I said. “It was meant to get through to the most alien of beings, why they were being imprisoned. It’s not fair. It’s not meant for people. It could hurt you. But if I don’t do it, you’re going to die.”

Why bother including such a mechanism if you intended your island prison to just hold them until the end of time? My guess is that it was intended for the same reason that the sword does it, to show the creatures trapped there the error of their ways AND to shove them in the direction of atonement and redemption. I'm also guessing that Merlin copied this mechanism from Amoracchius while designing Demonreach since he was the custodian of Amoracchius at one point.

And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.

So, what do you think?

[Arjan]

This is mostly complete guesswork but it feels right to me so fuck it.

In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.

And back in Peace Talks there was a similar but far more forceful mechanism shown as part of Demonreach.

Why bother including such a mechanism if you intended your island prison to just hold them until the end of time? My guess is that it was intended for the same reason that the sword does it, to show the creatures trapped there the error of their ways AND to shove them in the direction of atonement and redemption. I'm also guessing that Merlin copied this mechanism from Amoracchius while designing Demonreach since he was the custodian of Amoracchius at one point.

And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.

So, what do you think?

The warden can set them free probably as a last ditch defense of reality so in case that happens a bit of damage control however futile might be called for.

But it is only one of the available protocols. The warden can decide which one to use so it might just be that it only has an effect on certain specific creatures.

Or it is just added torture.

[Mira]

In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.

Quote

    I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.

My first thoughts were the angel of the Sword understands that Harry is worth saving, so he sent a message.  If he is capable of feeling empathy, understanding it, and feeling shame for his reaction, he is worth saving.  If Harry were merely a cold blooded killer or sociopath, he wouldn't have cared or reacted the way he did, heck he'd have felt nothing.  Between that, the burn, and the hint of sulfur, Harry took the hint that he was in danger of falling off the wagon big time, controlling himself in the future is up to him.

[groinkick]

And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.

So, what do you think?

I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock?  They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards. 

A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon.  If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed.  A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.

Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are. 

[Mira]

I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock?  They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards. 

A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon.  If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed.  A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.

Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are.

All of that, but if the wizard truly intends to use dark magic, do you really think they'd have a sense of empathy upon seeing the situation through the target's eyes?  That vision helped to bring Harry back to reality after he lost his head in grief.

[Arjan]

I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock?  They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards. 

A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon.  If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed.  A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.

Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are.

What to do with a crazy one is not that interesting, they are just too crazy to let run around.

The real question is what to do with those that are not crazy and maybe can be saved. Here the white council's stand (better save than sorry) and the knight of the cross (give everyone a chance for redemption) are diametrically opposed.

The white council's stance has a drawback. Offering no chances puts them with their back to the wall which can drive people over the edge who otherwise could have been saved. It escalates the violence.

[Feral Plum]

I think that is a good point. Forgiveness and redemption are essential. Especially as none of us is truly good.
Demonreach as purgatory is very Christian. Converting enemies to friends is very ethical. Just very hard.

[Dina]

I think that is a good point. Forgiveness and redemption are essential. Especially as none of us is truly good.
Demonreach as purgatory is very Christian. Converting enemies to friends is very ethical. Just very hard.

I agree. And I also agree with Mira about the Sword somehow testing Harry, to see his reaction to Rudolph's emotions.

[forumghost]

I mean it could have just been Butters developing Jedi powers to go with his lightsaber.

Force Empathy would fit right in there with things like Force Push, Force Speed, etc.

[groinkick]

What to do with a crazy one is not that interesting, they are just too crazy to let run around.

The real question is what to do with those that are not crazy and maybe can be saved. Here the white council's stand (better save than sorry) and the knight of the cross (give everyone a chance for redemption) are diametrically opposed.

The white council's stance has a drawback. Offering no chances puts them with their back to the wall which can drive people over the edge who otherwise could have been saved. It escalates the violence.

Couple of major differences.  The Knights for the most part give second chances to people who take up a Coin.  Without the Coin the person is basically back to normal (wizards are different because they can form a link).  A wizard who's done black magic doesn't really have a way to remove that influence like someone with a Coin.  If you've murdered with magic once, you're more likely to do it again because you've been permanently corrupted. 

Not saying I agree with the Council and how the do things, but wizards are similar to Angels.  An Angel can fall, and be a Fallen from a single choice, and it's permanent (as far as we know).  A wizard who makes bad choices falls in a similar way albeit it's probably a more gradual fall rather than a single big fall.

[Arjan]

Couple of major differences.  The Knights for the most part give second chances to people who take up a Coin.  Without the Coin the person is basically back to normal (wizards are different because they can form a link).  A wizard who's done black magic doesn't really have a way to remove that influence like someone with a Coin.  If you've murdered with magic once, you're more likely to do it again because you've been permanently corrupted. 

Not saying I agree with the Council and how the do things, but wizards are similar to Angels.  An Angel can fall, and be a Fallen from a single choice, and it's permanent (as far as we know).  A wizard who makes bad choices falls in a similar way albeit it's probably a more gradual fall rather than a single big fall.

A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.

[Mira]

A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.

 There is a subtle difference, it isn't that a Knight is reluctant to kill, under the rules of the Sword, if the coin holder surrenders and gives up the coin, they have to give him or her a chance of redemption, it isn't up to them to judge, that is for the Almighty.  In a fair battle where no quarter is given, they are free to kill.  Wizards are not supposed to kill with magic, they have little empathy towards a kid screwing up and going down the warlock road, they have no problem with judging and cutting off heads, with few exceptions.  The Knights aren't feeling empathy for coin holders, their rules are clear, or the rules governing the use of the Swords are clear, break them, and we see what happened with Murphy's misuse of the Sword of Faith.  Sanya and Michael felt little empathy for Cassius, if it were solely up to them, no mercy, but it isn't, as they both clearly state when he surrendered.  Also why neither had much of a problem when Harry beat him up, he wasn't playing under the same rules.   You really cannot compare wizards to Holy Knights.

[Arjan]

There is a subtle difference, it isn't that a Knight is reluctant to kill, under the rules of the Sword, if the coin holder surrenders and gives up the coin, they have to give him or her a chance of redemption, it isn't up to them to judge, that is for the Almighty.  In a fair battle where no quarter is given, they are free to kill.  Wizards are not supposed to kill with magic, they have little empathy towards a kid screwing up and going down the warlock road, they have no problem with judging and cutting off heads, with few exceptions.  The Knights aren't feeling empathy for coin holders, their rules are clear, or the rules governing the use of the Swords are clear, break them, and we see what happened with Murphy's misuse of the Sword of Faith.  Sanya and Michael felt little empathy for Cassius, if it were solely up to them, no mercy, but it isn't, as they both clearly state when he surrendered.  Also why neither had much of a problem when Harry beat him up, he wasn't playing under the same rules.   You really cannot compare wizards to Holy Knights.

If you go into the finer details no but every comparison fails if you dig deep enough.

The important difference is that the wardens first thought is kill and the knights first thought is redeem. A dead person can not be saved anymore.

[bigdangmoose]

With reading this thread, I have been going over in my head of how the WCouncil has behaved, thinking of them in a different light, and adding in the station of the Blackstaff, I am seeing some things that I never would have thought of before.

When Merlin created the Council, he may have made it to be a place of defense against the darkness for humanity, a place against the Outside. They had one Warden, a man in charge of the island, who helped  hold the unreformed and monsters. They Council took the time and helped teach magic.

But, as with everything, time and humanity changed the ideals of Merlin. Instead of welcoming all, the Council has become murderous mens club. (I had another label for them, but that would get a TT started.) And added men to the

So now the Council has cleaned itself up so much and became so political that it doesn't know how do deal with teaching those that have used black magic. As example, Harry going to live with Eb. They wanted him to kill Harry.

I'm beginning to wonder if Langtry is one of the big bads of the story. Pushing the Council into this perfect nation idea.

[Mira]

If you go into the finer details no but every comparison fails if you dig deep enough.

The important difference is that the wardens first thought is kill and the knights first thought is redeem. A dead person can not be saved anymore.

Wardens have a choice, Holy Knights do not, you don't have to dig very deep at all.  First rule of the Holy Swords and the Knights who wield them, redemption is possible, it is for the Almighty to judge, not a Knight who is a mere human.  If the one holding the coin, surrenders and gives up the coin, they are let go to live the rest of his or her life, then seeking redemption becomes his or her choice.
A Warden on the other hand can take the head of a warlock after a soul gaze, the Senior Council hardly bothers with trials anymore.  With them the assumption is most warlocks cannot be redeemed, they are too tainted and it is better for everyone that they be executed.