The Barabbas curse

[BrainFireBob]

@BrainFireBob
Why does everyone keep telling me the series isn't about Murphy?
@LaraBeckWell, no, at least not on a paying basis. I can afford to buy any book he writes(I own the latest two plus the audiobooks), but I don't subsidize writing which makes me cringe.  Or at least maybe makes me cringe.  I'm undecided. In any case that's what libraries are for.

He telegraphed what's coming.  Harry or maybe Harry prime are going to Hulk out at some point. He taken Harry to the Hulk alter at least twice to date.  First over mommy issues and lastly over Murphy's murder.  And has spent a lot of time talking about anger management issues as far back as Summer Knight. Think Shiva...Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds!

Because you raise the complaint that other characters- or genders- than the main get less central treatment.

It's not the story of Team Dresden. It's the story of an individual, kind of story it is. Other characters are literally support staff.

[morriswalters]

Because you raise the complaint that other characters- or genders- than the main get less central treatment.

No.  I'm saying all the women in Dresden's life get treated like girls. Here's me talking to my grand daughter about Skin Game.

Honey ignore the fact that Murphy knows the purpose of the swords and she knows what happens when the swords are misused. It really OK for girls to go stupid under pressure and do stupid things, because, well girls will be girls.

[forumghost]

The fuck does her being a woman have to do with it? People in this series do dumb things regardless of gender.

Hell, in The Warrior the only reason that Michael didn't make the exact same mistake as Murphy (only worse) is because Harry intervened. If he hadn't, Michael would have murdered a man in cold blood with Amoracchius.

[groinkick]

No.  I'm saying all the women in Dresden's life get treated like girls. Here's me talking to my grand daughter about Skin Game.

You mean like Dresden making one mistake after another throughout the entire series?  Jim hasn't treated any women in the story worse than he's treated Harry.  The only difference is Harry has to be alive for the story to continue, and they don't.  Harry is supposed to be a tragic character that suffers loss after loss.  He suffered his first loss literally when he was born.  Look at the end of BG...  The woman he loves is dead, his brother is seriously messed up, his relationship with his Grandfather is the worst it's ever been, several of his friends got killed, his friend Carlos no longer trusts him, and isn't his friend anymore, and the White Council kicked him out.

His father was killed, his adoptive father was a monster, Shiro sacrificed his life for Harry causing a ton of guilt, Morgan and Harry finally connect only for Morgan to get murdered, Susan dies...  I mean it's one loss after another for him.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I think there is another aspect or drawback to Murphy's death that hasn't been mentioned.  She was the major vanilla mortal in the series.  Yes, Michael is still around, but he played for one of the big teams in the supernatural world, so he doesn't have an outsiders perspective.  For the same reason, Butters and Sanya aren't vanilla mortals.  Plus, as Molly seems likely to go more Wintery, Michael; and for that matter Charity, may have their own concerns to deal with and become less helpful to Harry.  As odd as it may seem, IMO the Alphas are now the closest characters to the vanilla world, because outside of their shapeshifting they mostly lead vanilla mortal lives.  However, it's questionable how much we will see them in future books.  Seeing as the next book will deal with the next year in Harry's life, it would be natural for Harry to have at least one conversation with Billy and Georgia, but I'll be surprised if they play a major role in keeping Harry grounded, but to a degree they've played that role before.

I suppose this could also be a good thing, depending on the quality of the writing of the rest of the series.  Except for raising his daughter, Harry is now fully immersed in the supernatural world.  Of course, the possibility exists that Maggie will soon be spending a lot of time away at school  (Yes, I know some of you are really hoping that will happen.) so that reminder of something beyond wizards, monsters, angels and demons could get pushed further away.  Maybe the idea of Harry getting pushed to the dark side or Hulking out, has something to it.

Earlier, I stated that I felt that Murphy had been indifferently written; as a more polite way of saying poorly written, since Changes.  The larger truth; and others have brought this up, is the series since Changes has been uneven, at best.  For the record, I really disliked Ghost Story, thought Cold Days dragged quite a bit, liked Skin Game; though it was far from perfect or as good most of DF file books between 5 and 11, and I wasn't impressed with either Peace Talks or Battle Ground.  However, that doesn't mean I hated Battle Ground.  It did just enough to make me want to read the next book, and probably the next book after that.  (I guess I'm really looking forward to Mirror Mirror.)  One good thing from Battle Ground is; and I didn't think about this until recently, I'm really glad that Harry has been kicked out of the White Council.  Within the story, the characters who pushed Harry out think they have weakened him.  I think it will backfire and Harry will become more powerful as he is forced to make alliances and negotiate with the heavyweights within the supernatural world.  Though Harry still has to worry about crossing the Council or openly breaking the Laws of magic, he doesn't have to answer to them either.  From a readers perspective, this could be really fun.  I also like the forced engagement to Lara Raith, for pretty much the same reason.  I think many readers focused on Lara Raith as a possible; make that impossible, romantic partner for Harry and reacted against that idea.  The fun part of the engagement is; or IMO should be, how it forces Harry to interact with, and learn from, the many interested parties who will be watching Harry and Lara.   

So, that is why I'm not one of those readers who is ready to quite the series.  That said, I think a lot is riding on the next DF book, and probably Mirror Mirror as well.  I don't think I'm alone in this, a DF adventure set in the world of professional wrestling doesn't hold much interest for me.  I can't say I care that much about Harry having to deal with a kaiju either.  For one thing, a Godzilla sized monster would tend to diminish zombie T-Rex Sue as a great supernatural spectacle; plus, I stopped being interested in those kind of supersize monsters a long time ago.  So the next couple of books really need to remind me how much fun the series was before Changes.

P.S. Nobody reacted to the point I stated earlier, that one the Knights of the Cross could have taken Karrin's place on the chopping block if Nicodemus did use the Barabbas curse.  It was pretty clearly stated by Michael in Death Masks that they had the ability to do so.           

[Mira]

I think there is another aspect or drawback to Murphy's death that hasn't been mentioned.  She was the major vanilla mortal in the series. 

Yes, but since she was kicked off the police force she was acting less and less vanilla, and more and more Super Woman. 

Earlier, I stated that I felt that Murphy had been indifferently written; as a more polite way of saying poorly written, since Changes.

I agree, it is like Jim didn't know what to do with her, it isn't like he didn't try several different things, but none of them were really successful.  Since Changes the story has moved on, the character of Murphy as originally written no longer fits into the story, so he killed her off.  I too haven't enjoyed the books as much since Changes, I don't think they are as well written.  For a
number of reasons in my opinion, could be that Jim has spread himself too thin, while it was possible to keep two series going at once, at this point in his career, one or the other suffers from lack of attention.  Or while his ambition to write 25 books or so including a three book BAT is to be commended, maybe it's more books than the story warrants?  Maybe it is time to edit, get it done and move on.

P.S. Nobody reacted to the point I stated earlier, that one the Knights of the Cross could have taken Karrin's place on the chopping block if Nicodemus did use the Barabbas curse.  It was pretty clearly stated by Michael in Death Masks that they had the ability to do so.

Perhaps, but so far they haven't been over used, though Butters runs the risk of being the next sacrificed because he runs the risk of losing the qualities that many of his fans love him for.

[morriswalters]

The fuck does her being a woman have to do with it? People in this series do dumb things regardless of gender.

Hell, in The Warrior the only reason that Michael didn't make the exact same mistake as Murphy (only worse) is because Harry intervened. If he hadn't, Michael would have murdered a man in cold blood with Amoracchius.

Michael wouldn't have done anything.  Michael is a character in a book.  If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.

So Jim chose to cripple Murphy in Skin Game. Then he chose to have her come back in Battle Ground and get shot in the neck. And it works as a story line.

But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll.  And she isn't the only female character  given this treatment.

[forumghost]

Michael wouldn't have done anything.  Michael is a character in a book.  If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.

So Jim chose to cripple Murphy in Skin Game. Then he chose to have her come back in Battle Ground and get shot in the neck. And it works as a story line.

But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll.  And she isn't the only female character  given this treatment.

So, you argued that Murphy made a stupid decision and misused the Sword because she's a girl:

Honey ignore the fact that Murphy knows the purpose of the swords and she knows what happens when the swords are misused. It really OK for girls to go stupid under pressure and do stupid things, because, well girls will be girls.

but then when I point out that another character that wasn't a woman required outside intervention to avoid the same error, now they're characters in a book and don't make decisions? Are you making a Doylist or a Watsonian argument here?

If you aren't willing to debate in good faith and just switch goalposts like that, tell people so they know not to bother having the discussion.

[Mira]

Michael wouldn't have done anything.  Michael is a character in a book.  If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.

So Jim chose to cripple Murphy in Skin Game. Then he chose to have her come back in Battle Ground and get shot in the neck. And it works as a story line.

But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll.  And she isn't the only female character  given this treatment.

He took Susan's career away from her, turned her into a half/vamp, she became a resistance fighter against the Red Court.  Not good enough, brought her back for a one night stand that got her pregnant then later killed.  However is this a thing about female characters or is Jim merely repeating himself because fresh ideas are running thin?  He takes Murphy's career away from her, and her projection is pretty much the same as Susan's was.  Perhaps his biggest mistake with Murphy beyond booting her off the police force is giving into the shippers and making her Harry's lover.  It was doomed from the start for the very reasons Murphy gave Harry back in Proven Guilty.  At least Jim saved us the pain of seeing the break up.

I  don't have a problem with Jim making Murphy a cripple back in Skin Game, there were consequences for her actions.  1] She was really playing the hypocrite as far as the Swords go
in her lecture to Harry as to how the Swords shouldn't be misused, then she goes and misuses one, no matter how noble her reasoning was.  2] She finally paid the price for fighting above her weight class. Nic beat the snot out of her.

But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off.

That's the whole thing, what happened to her in Skin Game should have both taken her mental and physical health away, but it was mostly glossed over.

 My problem is in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, all of that is swept under the table, no reflection on Murphy's part that she might have really screwed up.  No, she still playing the wise oracle to clueless Harry.  No struggles with coming to grips with her body's new very real limitations.  No, one minute she can barely walk, the next she is taking out a Valkyrie with a martial arts move, riding a motor cycle, and taking out a giant with a bazooka... On top of that instead of her going down, perhaps heroically fighting injured, above her weight class once again... She gets shot by a paranoid careless cop, give me a break.. Though the way her character has gone the last few books it was a bit of a relief.

[forumghost]

Honestly though, now I think about it I think I get why people are unhappy with how Murphy's 'heroes journey' went.

She went out and fought the good fight, going up against impossible odds again and again, and she kept bleeding for it. She suffered, she lost things that she held dear, and she finally died because of it. It's a fucking depressing end for a brave and heroic person, and it's also not what people expect- because normally in a story, when the hero fights the good fight and saves the day, they get rewarded, but Murphy didn't.

I disagree that it's because she's a woman though. It's because she's trying to be batman in the Justice League- and honestly? Batman shouldn't really be up there fighting time traveling warlock aliens from dimension x, because he's just a dude.

When Susan got fucked up, she learned to use her half-vampire powers and went to fight the Rampires in South America
When Michael got Crippled, he retired, because crippled people shouldn't be fighting Frost Giants and Demons and Vampires.
When Butters decided to step into the fight, he did it with an arsenal of Magical tools, a Powerful-as-heck spirit, and later a Lightsaber powered by an Angel.
When Marcone realised shit was getting to hot for him to handle, he cut a literal deal with the devil.

All the 'normal' characters in the series are either powering-up or stepping out as the stakes go up. Murphy is just the biggest and most recent casualty- and possibly not a permanent one (though I think she'll be out for at least a while, the same as Thomas).

To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"

It's why I'm bothered with how everyone is spooked by the Librarians. Like, Eb can pull a satellite from orbit with a wave of his hand, Mab can freeze over a City just by being there, but NOOO the random mortals are the real scary ones? Laaaame

[K.L.O.E.]

Honestly though, now I think about it I think I get why people are unhappy with how Murphy's 'heroes journey' went.

She went out and fought the good fight, going up against impossible odds again and again, and she kept bleeding for it. She suffered, she lost things that she held dear, and she finally died because of it. It's a fucking depressing end for a brave and heroic person, and it's also not what people expect- because normally in a story, when the hero fights the good fight and saves the day, they get rewarded, but Murphy didn't.

I disagree that it's because she's a woman though. It's because she's trying to be batman in the Justice League- and honestly? Batman shouldn't really be up there fighting time traveling warlock aliens from dimension x, because he's just a dude.

When Susan got fucked up, she learned to use her half-vampire powers and went to fight the Rampires in South America
When Michael got Crippled, he retired, because crippled people shouldn't be fighting Frost Giants and Demons and Vampires.
When Butters decided to step into the fight, he did it with an arsenal of Magical tools, a Powerful-as-heck spirit, and later a Lightsaber powered by an Angel.
When Marcone realised shit was getting to hot for him to handle, he cut a literal deal with the devil.

All the 'normal' characters in the series are either powering-up or stepping out as the stakes go up. Murphy is just the biggest and most recent casualty- and possibly not a permanent one (though I think she'll be out for at least a while, the same as Thomas).

To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"

It's why I'm bothered with how everyone is spooked by the Librarians. Like, Eb can pull a satellite from orbit with a wave of his hand, Mab can freeze over a City just by being there, but NOOO the random mortals are the real scary ones? Laaaame

I agree with 97% of what you've said. I'd have been more okay with Murphy's death if she'd been killed by flaming blood spatter from the Jotun than by crappy trigger discipline. I'm pretty sick of the Harry mixes it up with the Chicago P.D. part of the story, Harry's leveled up, his cop adversaries should too. (And Jim is totally setting this up for a "SWAT team invades the castle" scene, calling it now)

The only reason I could see the Librarians being scary is if they have access to  a Warehouse 13 type situation with Magitek and all sorts of dumb fun magical artifacts.

[morriswalters]

I've been consistent all along.  Doylist. I'm talking about Butchers writing choices.  About the difference in the treatment of his male characters and the treatment of his female characters.

Jim told you early on why you should fear the Librarians. The only Skin Walker killed in the books was nuked.

[Mira]

I agree with 97% of what you've said. I'd have been more okay with Murphy's death if she'd been killed by flaming blood spatter from the Jotun than by crappy trigger discipline. I'm pretty sick of the Harry mixes it up with the Chicago P.D. part of the story, Harry's leveled up, his cop adversaries should too. (And Jim is totally setting this up for a "SWAT team invades the castle" scene, calling it now)

Which is my point about Jim beginning to repeat himself.

To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"

Yes, and though she was a skilled fighter and cop, in the beginning of the series she was a normal person.  She did excellent work and was tough, but the character stayed with in the lines.  After she got kicked off the force those lines got more and more blurred, she just wasn't believable anymore. Yes, I understand this is fiction/fantasy, but still her involvement got wilder and wilder.  She became less believable as a "normal" vanilla human, normal injured humans aren't able to do what she did after she left Mac's bar up until the time of her death.

I agree with 97% of what you've said. I'd have been more okay with Murphy's death if she'd been killed by flaming blood spatter from the Jotun than by crappy trigger discipline

Yes, that would have been consistent with with a character fighting further and further out of her weight class. 
Especially one who has obvious injuries that slowed her down considerably.   If she had to be ended, her best end in my mind would have been in front of Mac's Bar trying to save some ordinary mortals who were looking for shelter.

[morriswalters]

To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"

The only difference between her and Butter's is that she's dead.  This was a story choice that Jim contrived.  She remained a normal human because Jim decided that was what served the story that he was writing. Her death in the story is close to perfect.  It refuses the reader closure. It sets up Harry's reaction, for the reader it reinforces the loss and leaves them nothing to hold onto. Not only that, Jim telegraphs it and still surprises.

[K.L.O.E.]

I've been consistent all along.  Doylist. I'm talking about Butchers writing choices.  About the difference in the treatment of his male characters and the treatment of his female characters.

Jim told you early on why you should fear the Librarians. The only Skin Walker killed in the books was nuked.

Honestly you shouldn't be able to Nuke a anything that can Hex technology, they are pretty complex devices. Don't even get me started on what a hex field should do to GPS, Nightvision Goggles, or any of the lovely toys we use to fight other mortals. Which ties into the point: the Librarians should be an annoyance but unless they have technology that can't be hexed (like Harry's twitter account) or magical weapons and rituals what are they going to do?

Which is my point about Jim beginning to repeat himself.

Yes, and though she was a skilled fighter and cop, in the beginning of the series she was a normal person.  She did excellent work and was tough, but the character stayed with in the lines.  After she got kicked off the force those lines got more and more blurred, she just wasn't believable anymore. Yes, I understand this is fiction/fantasy, but still her involvement got wilder and wilder.  She became less believable as a "normal" vanilla human, normal injured humans aren't able to do what she did after she left Mac's bar up until the time of her death.

Yes, that would have been consistent with with a character fighting further and further out of her weight class. 
Especially one who has obvious injuries that slowed her down considerably.   If she had to be ended, her best end in my mind would have been in front of Mac's Bar trying to save some ordinary mortals who were looking for shelter.

I do wonder if Mab or an angel juiced her up at Mac's bar so she could ignore her injuries. As you said there is no way she's navigating a Harley, injured, through the streets of Chicago post EMP, with the near 300 pound gorilla that is Harry Dresden riding behind her. Not freaking happening.

I was hoping that she and Butters would switch roles and she would become Team Dresden's "Girl in the Chair" (really I was hoping on Oracle, opportunity for awesome character growth) but apparently we can't have nice things.