Mother Winter and Mother Summer Are the Same, Right?

[heidi_storage]

There's the bit in CD where the Mothers talk about Dresden guessing "our" names, when he was summoning Mother Winter; I thought I remembered a WoJ saying that Titania was MS's daughter, and Mab was the daughter of MW, and Mab and Titania are sisters. Am I off base?

(Sorry for the lack of quotes. I'm typing one handed while feeding the baby.)

[Yuillegan]

Yes, the implication is that they are indeed the same being. There is even a big hint in Skin Games, when Harry sees a statue in the vaults of Hades. But...I suspect it might be more than that too. It isn't clear on who or what split the Courts, and whether that divided them or doubled them. So the actual original being could have reduced it self down or doubled itself. Most people here seem to believe (myself included) that the original being split itself into several lesser beings - the Queens of Faerie. It did this likely so it could have more flexibility. But there is always a cost too...

[K.L.O.E.]

Yes, the implication is that they are indeed the same being. There is even a big hint in Skin Games, when Harry sees a statue in the vaults of Hades. But...I suspect it might be more than that too. It isn't clear on who or what split the Courts, and whether that divided them or doubled them. So the actual original being could have reduced it self down or doubled itself. Most people here seem to believe (myself included) that the original being split itself into several lesser beings - the Queens of Faerie. It did this likely so it could have more flexibility. But there is always a cost too...

The going theory is it was Hecate or Persephone who sacrificed themselves on the stone table correct?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Both yes and no. God level and above may be both singular and multiple at the same time. The Mantles look to be artificial barriers created to prevent too much power coalescing into a single being. The Mothers can barely intervene in the mortal reality without potentially breaking it. The Queens look to be just powerful enough to not break reality. Add the power of the Lady and the Knight and you are in a Ferrovax territory, a being of that power couldn’t fully manifest in the mortal world without breaking reality, and that is the position of the Mothers, they can reach in and grab Harry, they can’t come to him.

All 8 Fae Mantles together would challenge the White God if collected in a single being, unless simultaneously they are also the White God, which is possible. It explains Mab and Uriel working together. Linear time is only exclusively for mortals so theoretically all 8 Mantles could eventually coalesce into a single entity which reaches back and creates linear time and hence creation. Mab is part of something that is/was/will be part of the White God.

[LostInTime]

Jim has said recently that the fae courts had a sponsor to become the guardians of the Outer Gates. That sponsor set up the courts and created the mantles.

He's also said that Mother Summer has been replaced once, either was killed or retired. Mother Winter is the OG Mother Winter and the only fae queen who was around when the courts were set up. She could be the original sponsor wearing one of the mantles to retain immortality. I believe Jim will use her as a conduit to tell the tale of the origin of the courts.

Thankfully he's also said that the fae courts will be the last guardians of the Outer Gates. Which I take to mean that they will no longer be needed and the fae courts and mantles will be destroyed by the end of the BAT.

[The_Sibelis]

Thankfully he's also said that the fae courts will be the last guardians of the Outer Gates.

citation needed. He said they are the last guardians not that they WILL be the last guardians.

[groinkick]

All 8 Fae Mantles together would challenge the White God if collected in a single being, unless simultaneously they are also the White God, which is possible. It explains Mab and Uriel working together. Linear time is only exclusively for mortals so theoretically all 8 Mantles could eventually coalesce into a single entity which reaches back and creates linear time and hence creation. Mab is part of something that is/was/will be part of the White God.

I don't really think there is any evidence of this....  The Sidhe operate on a global scale.  TWG operates on a universal scale.  I mean they aren't remotely comparable in power.  Uriel can think a galaxy out of existence while Mab can cause bad weather on Earth....  There is one Uriel across the entire multiverse.....  Not even remotely close in actual true power. 

[Yuillegan]

The going theory is it was Hecate or Persephone who sacrificed themselves on the stone table correct?

Yep...I have heard the Persephone theory and the only way I seeing it really working is if several Goddesses were in fact the Queens. But Jim seems to only refer to the one sponsor, which is why Hecate makes more sense.

Both yes and no. God level and above may be both singular and multiple at the same time. The Mantles look to be artificial barriers created to prevent too much power coalescing into a single being. The Mothers can barely intervene in the mortal reality without potentially breaking it. The Queens look to be just powerful enough to not break reality. Add the power of the Lady and the Knight and you are in a Ferrovax territory, a being of that power couldn’t fully manifest in the mortal world without breaking reality, and that is the position of the Mothers, they can reach in and grab Harry, they can’t come to him.

All 8 Fae Mantles together would challenge the White God if collected in a single being, unless simultaneously they are also the White God, which is possible. It explains Mab and Uriel working together. Linear time is only exclusively for mortals so theoretically all 8 Mantles could eventually coalesce into a single entity which reaches back and creates linear time and hence creation. Mab is part of something that is/was/will be part of the White God.

Not sure where you are getting that idea. Just because the Mothers are Archangel level (although it's not clear if that's both or just one) it doesn't follow that all 6 are TWG-level. I mean, the other Queens barely rate on the scale (particularly the Ladies and the Knights fit in somewhere...) And it's not clear that Ferrovax is Archangel level either.

Jim has said recently that the fae courts had a sponsor to become the guardians of the Outer Gates. That sponsor set up the courts and created the mantles.

He's also said that Mother Summer has been replaced once, either was killed or retired. Mother Winter is the OG Mother Winter and the only fae queen who was around when the courts were set up. She could be the original sponsor wearing one of the mantles to retain immortality. I believe Jim will use her as a conduit to tell the tale of the origin of the courts.

Thankfully he's also said that the fae courts will be the last guardians of the Outer Gates. Which I take to mean that they will no longer be needed and the fae courts and mantles will be destroyed by the end of the BAT.

Not quite, he actually said the Fae have always sort of been the foot soldiers of whoever was manning the Gates (which once was the Aseir and may have also been Olympians), it wasn't until the sponsor came along that the Fae got to run themselves...sort of. And yes, this appears to be when the split happened.

I don't recall much about them being the last guardians...but I do remember something about them being the latest.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The idea is that the 8 Mantles themselves may actually only be aspects of a greater whole as it is perceived in linear time. We have an alliance of Uriel, Mab, Hades and Odin, but what if they actually represent aspects of the non-linear White God, who is actually the Mantles, several ‘gods’, Archangels and angels who in our linear future coalesce into a single entity, the same entity which is then capable of creating linear time ending the non-linear existence previously enjoyed by god level entities. The White God effectively creates himself, and simultaneously exists as a singular entity and as all the various components which make him up.

Not only are  Mother Winter and Mother Summer “the same” so is, will be, and has been all the major god tier players on the side of mortal humans. It’s in the process of happening, has happened, will happen. Who knows maybe it’s humanities belief which provides the glue and the White God is a supernatural Singularity.

[K.L.O.E.]

The idea is that the 8 Mantles themselves may actually only be aspects of a greater whole as it is perceived in linear time. We have an alliance of Uriel, Mab, Hades and Odin, but what if they actually represent aspects of the non-linear White God, who is actually the Mantles, several ‘gods’, Archangels and angels who in our linear future coalesce into a single entity, the same entity which is then capable of creating linear time ending the non-linear existence previously enjoyed by god level entities. The White God effectively creates himself, and simultaneously exists as a singular entity and as all the various components which make him up.

Not only are  Mother Winter and Mother Summer “the same” so is, will be, and has been all the major god tier players on the side of mortal humans. It’s in the process of happening, has happened, will happen. Who knows maybe it’s humanities belief which provides the glue and the White God is a supernatural Singularity.

*drops jaw to floor* I love it, crazy, out there, and yet totally reasonable. All Gods are the elephant. Great theory.

[Yuillegan]

The idea is that the 8 Mantles themselves may actually only be aspects of a greater whole as it is perceived in linear time. We have an alliance of Uriel, Mab, Hades and Odin, but what if they actually represent aspects of the non-linear White God, who is actually the Mantles, several ‘gods’, Archangels and angels who in our linear future coalesce into a single entity, the same entity which is then capable of creating linear time ending the non-linear existence previously enjoyed by god level entities. The White God effectively creates himself, and simultaneously exists as a singular entity and as all the various components which make him up.

Not only are  Mother Winter and Mother Summer “the same” so is, will be, and has been all the major god tier players on the side of mortal humans. It’s in the process of happening, has happened, will happen. Who knows maybe it’s humanities belief which provides the glue and the White God is a supernatural Singularity.

If you're saying that all the gods are part of the greater whole, that's quite a different theory than merely suggesting that the 6 Queens of Faerie are the same as TWG. But perhaps I misunderstand you. You could also just be saying that TWG is merely the combination of only several distinct beings like the Queens plus Hades, Odin etc.

This theory is similar to what was floated in the GUCMT (Grand Unifying Cosmological Multiverse Theory...I think that's the acronym) by Serack. Worth a read if you haven't already. Basically, all the spirits (from inside Creation) are essentially offshoots or emanations of greater spirits, which are in turn emanations off the greater being TWG. So almost the exact same. Serack's theory also included angels etc. I don't think it covered Outsiders exactly, other than they were negative beings from a polar opposite plan/place. I have discussed in the past that perhaps in order for TWG to be everywhere it has to be connected and a part of everything, particularly things like souls. TWG is merely the term for the amalgamation of souls, angels, the universe etc. Perhaps the other gods too. But it's hard to say for sure.

[BrainFireBob]

I lean toward Demeter, since it would be more of a surprise reveal. We think of her as the goddess of growth- but her mourning for Persephone each year caused winter and death and misery to which she was indifferent.

From a Guardians of the Gates standpoint, it's been the Fae for at least a millenium. A millenium gone, the Norse gods were at their peak for worship. A millenium before that, the Roman gods; a millenium before that is questionable, but the Greeks nearly align, especially with how Jim plays with his mantles. A millenium before that- Egypt, maybe? A millenium before that, roughly, Sumer, with their mythology of order coming from the slaying of the primordial serpent. Before that, ?- dragons, maybe. As members of the Accords, we've seen Sumerian-speaking ghouls, Etruscan speaking vampires, old Norse gods, and in the background a Greek/Roman deity (is Hades a signatory?).

No real point, just tossing things out there. Millenarian movements are a very real force in human psychology, and Jim seems to be hellbent on creating an "Everything is in it!" series.

[K.L.O.E.]

I lean toward Demeter, since it would be more of a surprise reveal. We think of her as the goddess of growth- but her mourning for Persephone each year caused winter and death and misery to which she was indifferent.

From a Guardians of the Gates standpoint, it's been the Fae for at least a millenium. A millenium gone, the Norse gods were at their peak for worship. A millenium before that, the Roman gods; a millenium before that is questionable, but the Greeks nearly align, especially with how Jim plays with his mantles. A millenium before that- Egypt, maybe? A millenium before that, roughly, Sumer, with their mythology of order coming from the slaying of the primordial serpent. Before that, ?- dragons, maybe. As members of the Accords, we've seen Sumerian-speaking ghouls, Etruscan speaking vampires, old Norse gods, and in the background a Greek/Roman deity (is Hades a signatory?).

No real point, just tossing things out there. Millenarian movements are a very real force in human psychology, and Jim seems to be hellbent on creating an "Everything is in it!" series.

Demeter is a good one as she's the Goddess of cycles. Hecate as the goddess of witchcraft could fit. Persephone has a tie in for the seasonal nature of the courts. Two more options are the Horea or it was it was all three who sacrificed themselves.

Something else we haven't mentioned is how Vadderung is in the courts but not of the courts so there could be a relationship to Idunn or another Norse Goddess.

[Sydna]

I lean toward Demeter, since it would be more of a surprise reveal. We think of her as the goddess of growth- but her mourning for Persephone each year caused winter and death and misery to which she was indifferent.

From a Guardians of the Gates standpoint, it's been the Fae for at least a millenium. A millenium gone, the Norse gods were at their peak for worship. A millenium before that, the Roman gods; a millenium before that is questionable, but the Greeks nearly align, especially with how Jim plays with his mantles. A millenium before that- Egypt, maybe? A millenium before that, roughly, Sumer, with their mythology of order coming from the slaying of the primordial serpent. Before that, ?- dragons, maybe. As members of the Accords, we've seen Sumerian-speaking ghouls, Etruscan speaking vampires, old Norse gods, and in the background a Greek/Roman deity (is Hades a signatory?).

No real point, just tossing things out there. Millenarian movements are a very real force in human psychology, and Jim seems to be hellbent on creating an "Everything is in it!" series.

Is the story about her creating the summer and winter be a symbolic representation of the division of the elven courts?