Author Topic: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?  (Read 10079 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4255
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
In Battle Ground, Harry, Eb, LTW and the wardens are tipped off that necromancy is occurring in a local cemetery.  They land and find that Mavra is acting as a drummer, though the situation was a setup.  We know what happened next.  Afterwards, Warden Ramirez was pretty upset about what happened to Wardens Wild Bill and Yoshino. 

It's likely Carlos would have had to file some kind of after action report and probably talked about the details of the fight with Captain Luccio.  I don't think we know who Carlos was apprenticed to.  If it has been mentioned please correct me.  We don't know if Carlos has a mentor on the Senior Council or if he feels comfortable talking openly with any of them, but when he is troubled Carlos Ramirez might talk to someone else besides Captain Luccio.

The Wardens must have some kind of reports or dossier on Mavra.  Ebenezer certainly knows about her.  (Or IT as he prefers.)  There just won't be any reports, indications or rumors that Mavra or any of the Black Court knew how to use necromancy before the events of Battle Ground.  I think that sooner or later the mystery of how any of the Black Court learned necromancy will become an itch that Warden Ramirez or someone else on the Council will want to scratch.  In another recent thread someone posted a WoJ about Harry having to face the consequences of his actions and I think giving Mavra "The Word of Kemler" is to big an action not to have consequences.

There isn't anything to really connect Harry to Mavra learning necromancy, except he is the reason she knows how to use necromancy.  Ramirez knows that Cowl is still alive, I think.  Though I don't believe he would know with the certainty that Harry has.  So, in theory Cowl could be the person who shared the secret of necromancy with Mavra, though it has the problem of not being true and I don't think that will make much sense to whoever investigates it.  This is just a guess, but I doubt that necromancers have ever shared their secrets with any of the vampire courts and especially the Black Court.  It's just wouldn't have been in their interest to do so.  So suspicion will fall on Harry, even without evidence to back it up.  Harry is the only other person the Council knows, who knows how to use necromancy.  He even told Luccio that he read The Word of Kemmler and Morgan may have heard that as well.  So at least Captain Luccio and Ramirez know Harry could pull off a Dark Hollow if he wanted to.  We don't know who Luccio may have talked to about that, but I would bet that Morgan mentioned Harry's new abilities to the Merlin.

So I think it's just a question of when Harry will have to find a way to exonerate himself, even though in this case he is guilty.  Seeing as framing Cowl as Mavra's teacher will be difficult to impossible, my guess is that Harry will have to destroy the evidence, meaning destroy Mavra, before the Council can discover the truth.  Plus, I almost forgot, Mavra may still have The Word of Kemmler in her possession, so Harry has to get rid of it as well.  Does Drakul know how to use necromancy?  With luck he will have thought that learning that skill was beneath him.

Any thoughts on this subject?

 
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline b4utoo

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
So where does it say that Harry showed Mavra how to do necromancy... just because Harry's only one performs necromancy doesn't mean he's the only one knows how to do it

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4255
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
  • Harry gave Mavra the necromancy user's manual.
  • Some members of the Senior Council want to find reasons to go after after Harry.
  • Most of Kemmler's disciples are dead.
  • Most important, there will be consequences for giving Mavra The Word.
If nothing else, Harry may be accused of deliberately leading the younger wardens into a trap.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline b4utoo

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
You're all putting too much stock in Mavra having the book. I'm pretty sure it had to do with keeping people from knowing how to use necromancy against the black Court. I just don't understand how people assume that nobody knows necromancy. Especially the bad guys.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
In dead beat nobody was surprised that Harry knew necromancy.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
In Battle Ground, Harry, Eb, LTW and the wardens are tipped off that necromancy is occurring in a local cemetery.  They land and find that Mavra is acting as a drummer, though the situation was a setup.  We know what happened next.  Afterwards, Warden Ramirez was pretty upset about what happened to Wardens Wild Bill and Yoshino. 

It's likely Carlos would have had to file some kind of after action report and probably talked about the details of the fight with Captain Luccio.  I don't think we know who Carlos was apprenticed to.  If it has been mentioned please correct me.  We don't know if Carlos has a mentor on the Senior Council or if he feels comfortable talking openly with any of them, but when he is troubled Carlos Ramirez might talk to someone else besides Captain Luccio.

The Wardens must have some kind of reports or dossier on Mavra.  Ebenezer certainly knows about her.  (Or IT as he prefers.)  There just won't be any reports, indications or rumors that Mavra or any of the Black Court knew how to use necromancy before the events of Battle Ground.  I think that sooner or later the mystery of how any of the Black Court learned necromancy will become an itch that Warden Ramirez or someone else on the Council will want to scratch.  In another recent thread someone posted a WoJ about Harry having to face the consequences of his actions and I think giving Mavra "The Word of Kemler" is to big an action not to have consequences.

There isn't anything to really connect Harry to Mavra learning necromancy, except he is the reason she knows how to use necromancy.  Ramirez knows that Cowl is still alive, I think.  Though I don't believe he would know with the certainty that Harry has.  So, in theory Cowl could be the person who shared the secret of necromancy with Mavra, though it has the problem of not being true and I don't think that will make much sense to whoever investigates it.  This is just a guess, but I doubt that necromancers have ever shared their secrets with any of the vampire courts and especially the Black Court.  It's just wouldn't have been in their interest to do so.  So suspicion will fall on Harry, even without evidence to back it up.  Harry is the only other person the Council knows, who knows how to use necromancy.  He even told Luccio that he read The Word of Kemmler and Morgan may have heard that as well.  So at least Captain Luccio and Ramirez know Harry could pull off a Dark Hollow if he wanted to.  We don't know who Luccio may have talked to about that, but I would bet that Morgan mentioned Harry's new abilities to the Merlin.

So I think it's just a question of when Harry will have to find a way to exonerate himself, even though in this case he is guilty.  Seeing as framing Cowl as Mavra's teacher will be difficult to impossible, my guess is that Harry will have to destroy the evidence, meaning destroy Mavra, before the Council can discover the truth.  Plus, I almost forgot, Mavra may still have The Word of Kemmler in her possession, so Harry has to get rid of it as well.  Does Drakul know how to use necromancy?  With luck he will have thought that learning that skill was beneath him.

Any thoughts on this subject?

Oh I believe the book of Kemmler is grade school stuff for Drakul.  I think that Mavra wants it to betray him at the Stars and Stones.  Lord Raith apparently thought he could be a player before getting neutered, so Mavra could also be one.  I think she's pretending to be loyal to Drakul until the timing is right, and try to grab power for herself.  That book has vast knowledge that can help her a great deal.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
You're all putting too much stock in Mavra having the book. I'm pretty sure it had to do with keeping people from knowing how to use necromancy against the black Court. I just don't understand how people assume that nobody knows necromancy. Especially the bad guys.

Choices have consequences.  It's been pointed out again and again in the books, and Jim himself.  Dresden handed over a book with scary kinds of knowledge.  Everything from Necromancy, to the DarkHallow.  A book written by a man that cheated death over and over, and took the entire White Council to defeat.  He handed that over to Mavra, a Black Court vampire.  To think that Dresden choosing to hand over that book to her won't have any consequences???  Well I strongly disagree. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
In dead beat nobody was surprised that Harry knew necromancy.

Doubtless there had been rumours to this effect for years before he gained the knowledge.

Offline seanham

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Doubtless there had been rumours to this effect for years before he gained the knowledge.

Due to the irregular nature of Harry's apprenticeship, it could be that most or part of the Council don't know what he knows. Eb might have kept the information to himself or just to his friends.

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2729
    • View Profile
Choices have consequences.  It's been pointed out again and again in the books, and Jim himself.  Dresden handed over a book with scary kinds of knowledge.  Everything from Necromancy, to the DarkHallow.  A book written by a man that cheated death over and over, and took the entire White Council to defeat.  He handed that over to Mavra, a Black Court vampire.  To think that Dresden choosing to hand over that book to her won't have any consequences???  Well I strongly disagree. 

Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"

Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.

Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2021, 03:58:38 AM »
Due to the irregular nature of Harry's apprenticeship, it could be that most or part of the Council don't know what he knows. Eb might have kept the information to himself or just to his friends.

I doubt that Eb knows beyond the fact that as the sixteen year old kid he soul gazed was naturally
very powerful and an angry adolescent.  However the soul gaze would tell him nothing about the amount of actual magical knowledge Harry had.  I also doubt that Eb tested that knowledge fearing perhaps to snap the fragile Doom that young Harry's life hung by.  So instead, Eb taught ethics and prescribed physical labor to vent young passions.  Notice also that Eb didn't even insist that Harry finish high school for crap sake, what was that all about?  At sixteen Harry should have had at least two years of school to finish, and could have finished at the local high school and not later have to get his GED.  What was Eb afraid of?  Unless it was done on purpose, just another way to limit Harry. 
We know from the books that Harry is very self conscience of his lack of formal education and it does
hold him back sometimes.  Notice also that one of the things Harry insisted Molly do as a condition of her apprenticeship is finish high school.

Quote
Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"

Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.

Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.

I don't believe it was that simple because blackmail never is.  Also if I remember correctly when Harry handed the book over to her, he also informed her that he had also read the book and understood it, and would use it against her.  However having said that I agree there will be consequences.  However as far as Mavra and necromancy, I doubt that Council would be all that
curious, after all what do Black Court Vamps do?  They areliterally the walking dead to begin with.  That is how they recruit, they kill their victims and then raise them up as vampires, it is a known fact.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2021, 02:56:26 AM »
I don't think anything Drakul and his posse were doing in the cemetery is more advanced than it's reasonable to assume Drakul already knew in his own right. The Word was Kemmler's final book with the most advanced secrets.

Raising zombies is elementary stuff by comparison. If Drakul didn't know that before Kemmler was even born, he could easily have got copies of the elementary necromancy texts that Kemmler was flooding around Europe to cause problems for the Wardens by giving two-bit baddies real power.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2021, 04:39:50 AM »
I am inclined to agree that Mavra and the other Black Court wizards/sorcerers knew at least some necromancy well before Dresden handed the Word of Kemmler over. Quite likely well before Kemmler existed (depending on how old Kemmler is). The Black Court have been around since the dawn of mankind supposedly, I'd say it's likely they knew at least some basic necromancy to begin with. Drakul almost certainly.

It's also not a straight forward leap that because Mavra can do necromancy, or because Harry gave the WoK and also performed necromancy, that either is responsible for the "Black Council" knowing and using necromancy. I mean, Kemmler might have started it or any of his apprentices (likely Cowl). Or perhaps it's older. Which besides all that assumes the White Council will even investigate. Remember that the White Council officially maintains that there is no Black Council. Assuming such a body of people even exist.

I do agree that there will be consequences for Harry giving Mavra the WoK. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Council ended up blaming Harry for whatever happens with that book (assuming they somehow learn that he gave Mavra the WoK).

I doubt that Eb knows beyond the fact that as the sixteen year old kid he soul gazed was naturally  very powerful and an angry adolescent.  However the soul gaze would tell him nothing about the amount of actual magical knowledge Harry had.  I also doubt that Eb tested that knowledge fearing perhaps to snap the fragile Doom that young Harry's life hung by.  So instead, Eb taught ethics and prescribed physical labor to vent young passions. 
Where do you get the idea that Eb wouldn't have taught Harry magic or have learned what Dumorne tutored Harry in?  I have seen this idea around the internet a bit and am unsure why it's so prevalent. 

I don't remember anything about Harry only learning farm labor and ethics (although I do remember that was part of his training). Eb showed him how to cut a staff and such, taught him a bit about the White Council etc. Harry even says that most wizards learn from a book that Ebenezar wrote about the basics of moving energy. I see no reason why Eb wouldn't have taught him some, and I am sure it was both his job and he would have been curious to see what his grandchild (the starborn and student of Dumorne) would have been able to do. In fact, Harry even references that he has had practice duels with Eb (In Dead Beat when duelling Cowl). So I think it's pretty clear that Eb trained and tested Harry at least to some extent in magical theory and practice.

Dresden: "B-But, the girl I had a crush on could have got in trouble!"

Seriously, what an excellent reason to hand an Chaotic Evil Super Zombie and DIY Godhood kit.

Honestly, I hope it comes back to bite him, simply because Harry deserves it for making a move that stupid.
I mean, I understand the frustration and I get the sentiment. In saying that it was someone he cared about. The smart move might have been to let Bianca have Susan in Grave Peril (or so it would seem). But as Mira points out who knows what other consequences could have arisen. Not to mention that tiny little thing...caring about someone. I mean, if you're going to go to the wall you might as well do it for someone you love. Love isn't logic, as Mab pointed out rather well in Battle Ground. There also does seem to be a sense of divine justice in the Dresden Files. Mavra has gotten hers a few times, and will again. Think about what Michael Carpenter says to the Denarians in Skin Game - power doesn't insulate you from your choices, there is a divine Judge after all. But I do agree it will probably come back to haunt Dresden at some level.


And I do agree with it's likely Mavra will attempt Godhood before the end (assuming the WoK didn't go to Drakul...but he doesn't seem to need it for that sort of thing). It seems more likely that Mavra wanted the book to become a major player, rather than any other spells contained therein. She also could have given it to Cowl...but that seems less likely.

Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2021, 11:18:47 AM »
Quote
Where do you get the idea that Eb wouldn't have taught Harry magic or have learned what Dumorne tutored Harry in?  I have seen this idea around the internet a bit and am unsure why it's so prevalent.

I don't remember anything about Harry only learning farm labor and ethics (although I do remember that was part of his training). Eb showed him how to cut a staff and such, taught him a bit about the White Council etc. Harry even says that most wizards learn from a book that Ebenezar wrote about the basics of moving energy. I see no reason why Eb wouldn't have taught him some, and I am sure it was both his job and he would have been curious to see what his grandchild (the starborn and student of Dumorne) would have been able to do. In fact, Harry even references that he has had practice duels with Eb (In Dead Beat when duelling Cowl). So I think it's pretty clear that Eb trained and tested Harry at least to some extent in magical theory and practice.

Perhaps, but not as much as he might have, had Harry been an ordinary apprentice.  Also considering Eb's juice as a wizard?  His duels with Harry may have been like Harry teaching
Molly defense with snow balls.  The Council was afraid of Harry as a sixteen year old, to keep
him alive, Eb would have done his best to limit his grand son, and he did.  I still argue he didn't teach Harry a whole lot of new magic.  It still doesn't answer the question as to why Eb didn't insist that Harry return to high school and finish his education, even if it amounted only to formal Latin class and shop, both would have helped him.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2021, 04:05:31 PM »
Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]