Should Death be a character in the books?

[groinkick]

On the TV show Supernatural Death was a being of great power.  Some could argue that Mother Winter is death, and that could be right.  However I admit I wish another character to portray death.  What do you think?

[Avernite]

Death seems too big to have a true representative; Mother Winter does represent destruction and Mother Summer creation/growth, and they're essentially unable to do anything directly. If we go beyond the destructive and growing aspects of life to being death itself, it seems to me it should be a being as strong as those two COMBINED. Which means less than half as able to do anything.

Mind, that's because I don't think the Dresdenverse is a cyclical/reincarnative universe. If death is just a phase between lives, then sure, someone could be it - though in that case Mother Winter seems big enough to contain it.

[The_Sibelis]

Depends, which one? The angel of death, the horseman or the actual deity, usually named thanatos?
I confess, I think we've seen multiple layers of death, with the mask of the black staff being one, MW being the primary End Of All Things, and hhwbh being the original knight of death... And then we have Harry, oh Harry...

[Yuillegan]

I mean, I think Death is what Mother Winter has come to embody. Curiously though, we know that Death is complicated and there are levels.

Mother Winter represents entropy, destruction, change. Her power is from and used to rebalance things in the universe, she resets things. Her Unravelling is an embodiment of that. It takes Lily statue form and turns it into something that can be vulnerable, and therefore recaptured. Dresden learns of this in Summer Knight - power can be hoarded or changed. Which is all that death really does - here and in the Dresdenverse. It changes something from one state to another. 

But if we assume it's a separate being...what manner of being would it be? In the Sandman, Death is part of a group of beings called The Endless. They are gods to some but are really more like foundational forces embodied. They can be killed but not ended, they merely return in another facet. They are by-products of Yahweh (the Presence/God/Almighty)'s approach to Creation, according to Lucifer - and in that series he would know (especially considering at one point he creates his own Creation using the Demiurgic power of his twin brother Michael, something that only Lucifer and God achieve...until Michael's daughter but that's another story). But back to the point, what kind of spirit being would it be? A god? An Angel? I don't think either fit the bill exactly. The other side of God himself?

My guess it's just another name for whatever Mother Winter really is now (not what she was)...perhaps what Winter itself really is (all the Queens and all their subjects and all that power together).

By the way OP, totally agree that Supernatural's Death (played fantastically by the great Julian Richlings) was brilliant (especially with that haunting "O Death" intro) - at least in Season 5. I stopped watching about season 7 and only watched clips from later seasons but it seemed like they ruined it a bit, and then recast it. There's a show that probably should have stopped much earlier. But I digress.

Depends, which one? The angel of death, the horseman or the actual deity, usually named thanatos?
I confess, I think we've seen multiple layers of death, with the mask of the black staff being one, MW being the primary End Of All Things, and hhwbh being the original knight of death... And then we have Harry, oh Harry...

Good point, lots of different roles associated with Death. Thanatos is merely the Greek deity, there are many others in other religions. The horseman Death is from Christianity, as is the Angel (normally called Azrael but in some versions Samael). We have even encountered an angel of death in Ghost Story. More of a psychopomp than a representation of the process of change. In fact, what that angel in particular implied is that the process of dying is not done by some supernatural creature (no grim reaper shows up for the moment of transition). Instead it's just a built-in mechanic of the universe, just like ours. The angel (and probably other psychopomps) simply show up to collect/guide/protect a soul on the way to it's final destination - whilst other forces attempt to steal it. And not every soul either clearly, only the most valuable/most defenceless. I wonder if Hell has it's own special collection division.

Bit confused to your second line. HWWBh as the original Knight of Death? Where did you get that?

[Mira]

I think the closest we've come to it is the Angel of Death that hovered over Father Forthill briefly.
But yes, in a fantasy like The Dresden Files, Death, as a character could add a lot in my opinion.

[The_Sibelis]

Bit confused to your second line. HWWBh as the original Knight of Death? Where did you get that?

it's a confabulation of ideas, originally based on how Denton perceived Harry in a soul gaze. He saw him as the horseman death, with hell/hades following after... in this case hhwbh. I figure Harry's like a pupae form(which... If outside is timeless, then what if when Harry dies he becomes hwwbh and his existence stretches through eternity so he was ALWAYS hhwbh..? Idk, but there's definitely a Harry, kemmler and Walker connection somewhere. Hhwb4s cloak is basically the same as kemmler from warhammers enchanted cloak, it moves and acts on its own, and was formed I think from the fear molly spread as the rag lady, his duster is mentioned as being a colorless rag in iirc, ghost story... Anyway back on topic) and as far as being mother winters knight,  in CD she tells Harry he's not her knight, I think she's being literal.. although more correctly, Ebs her knight. If we look at knights as a broken off portion of a deity capable of free will and with her baba yaga identity she could go anywhere and eat anyone but is crippled without it, it likely represents her knight as far as they've been shown in fairy. The price portion of her that has free will and can be weilded by another, with its own attached identity. Her knight IS death. The laying of the cattle move in CH was totally him scything with a scythe if you look at how he does it. I consider the fact an actual farmer wields what is basically deaths scythe to be a meta joke by Jim.

[Bad Alias]

By the way OP, totally agree that Supernatural's Death (played fantastically by the great Julian Richlings) was brilliant (especially with that haunting "O Death" intro) - at least in Season 5. I stopped watching about season 7 and only watched clips from later seasons but it seemed like they ruined it a bit, and then recast it. There's a show that probably should have stopped much earlier. But I digress.

Season 5 is where it should have ended if you think about it from a literary perspective instead of business. I eventually finished the whole thing. I liked the final episode. I don't think you need to watch anything past season 7 to watch that one episode.

It really depends on what Death is as to whether or not I want such a character in the series. I wouldn't mind if we met the Grim Reaper, but I'd prefer it if he was just another psychopomp, maybe one a bit more in charge of where the dead go than the ones we've seen so far, instead of some being in charge of all death everywhere. I don't think there's a lot of room for a supreme being devoted to death. It'd be a lot like what the WG has been in the DF, and I don't want to meet him either.

I don't mind authors answering questions they pose. I prefer it to leaving the questions totally up in the air. But what I like best is authors strongly suggesting answers. Once a character like season 5 death or the WG is introduced (in person, not just as a concept in the story), the author is answering too many questions too forcefully. And introducing characters like that, and the accompanying answers they provide to the big questions the author is posing, is often done really really poorly. Often insultingly poorly.

[Yuillegan]

Season 5 is where it should have ended if you think about it from a literary perspective instead of business. I eventually finished the whole thing. I liked the final episode. I don't think you need to watch anything past season 7 to watch that one episode.

It really depends on what Death is as to whether or not I want such a character in the series. I wouldn't mind if we met the Grim Reaper, but I'd prefer it if he was just another psychopomp, maybe one a bit more in charge of where the dead go than the ones we've seen so far, instead of some being in charge of all death everywhere. I don't think there's a lot of room for a supreme being devoted to death. It'd be a lot like what the WG has been in the DF, and I don't want to meet him either.

I don't mind authors answering questions they pose. I prefer it to leaving the questions totally up in the air. But what I like best is authors strongly suggesting answers. Once a character like season 5 death or the WG is introduced (in person, not just as a concept in the story), the author is answering too many questions too forcefully. And introducing characters like that, and the accompanying answers they provide to the big questions the author is posing, is often done really really poorly. Often insultingly poorly.

I have heard some good things, but on the whole it's a lot to watch. Maybe I will try again one day. I will check out the finale too, just for nostalgic purposes.

Agreed, better to leave it open ended than poorly done. Then again, I haven't yet been disappointed with Jim's big time beings either.

[heidi_storage]

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, having an embodiment of death would be in keeping with the series' literalism--there is a physical Blackstaff, an actual pair of Outer Gates--and Harry raises the possibility of such a being in Cold Days. On the other, as noted above the series has multiple deathy figures (don't forget Hades), so it's hard to know what Death would bring to the books.

[Mira]

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, having an embodiment of death would be in keeping with the series' literalism--there is a physical Blackstaff, an actual pair of Outer Gates--and Harry raises the possibility of such a being in Cold Days. On the other, as noted above the series has multiple deathy figures (don't forget Hades), so it's hard to know what Death would bring to the books.

I think it depends on what you see as who and or what Death is.  In my opinion, Death is more of a messenger than anything.  When Harry confronted the Angel of Death when Father Forthill was at that point dying, the Angel was going to take his soul somewhere after he died.  Hades doesn't cause death, he cares for or punishes the souls after they have died.  The Blackstaff kills, but it is the subject that dies and it's soul if it has one taken somewhere else by something else.  So I can see a
classic "Grim Reaper" type character popping up as a character in one of the books.

[groinkick]

Well if I was going to to have Death in the the books I'd say his power was above Mother Winters the same way Mother Winter is above the Winter Lady if not more so.   

First death is part of the fabric of existance.  Even so called Immortals are in danger of falling to if things go against them.  Second all morals Believe in it, fear it.  That in itself provides great power.

So I'd see Death as either equal to TWG, or just below Him. 

Harry has mentioned Death as a person in one of the books when summoning Mother Winter

[Mira]

Well if I was going to to have Death in the the books I'd say his power was above Mother Winters the same way Mother Winter is above the Winter Lady if not more so.   

I wouldn't call Mother Winter, Death, not even remotely.  Yes, things die in winter, but winter also makes life possible.  Things also die in summer, so Mother Summer could also be death by that definition. 

So I'd see Death as either equal to TWG, or just below Him. 

As I said, I see Death more of a messenger than a power.   "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away.." That is the power of TWG, not Death.

[groinkick]

I wouldn't call Mother Winter, Death, not even remotely. 

She's an aspect of the Fates, which include death. 

As I said, I see Death more of a messenger than a power.   "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away.." That is the power of TWG, not Death.

I agree at the end of the day TWG is the most powerful thing in existance.  But TWG has for extremely powerful Archangels.  TWG (from what I can tell) has jobs for beings, and then allows them to do those jobs.  Death is a big part of life, so much so that I could see TWG granting such a Being an enormous amount of power, to prevent anyone else disrupting it's ability to do it's job.

Remember Mab stated that death isn't black or white but shades of gray that if you cross to far over, not even she can get you back.  I believe that line she cannot cross is Death's domain.  Enter that realm, and there is no going back to the land of the living.  If this is the case not even an Outsider, Titan, demigod.....  Nothing would dare enter that realm for they fall under the power of something with vastly more power than them..  However one must cross into that realm to reach a higher level...  What we in the mortal world call Heaven.  I guess you could call Death's realm the Outer Gates of Heaven ..  In my theory if you crossed into Death's realm, but were not supposed to be there.... Well...  Death could simply erase you from existence...  No matter how powerful you were in the lower realms (Earth, NeverNever)...  It doesn't matter, Death could make you.... vanish for eternity.  Or possibly send you to some void to wander aimlessly forever.

[Mira]

Yes, but again death is only an aspect of Mother Winter, so I don't see her as "Death."  As I said,
when I think of Death as a character I think, Grim Reaper as seen in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure among other movies where the Grim Reaper has appeared.  Death Takes a Holiday, where death assumes a mortal identity for three days, interesting old movie, the remake isn't nearly as good.  Death as he has appeared as a character on the Twilight Zone a few times, in all these cases it has been shown that Death, as a character can be multidimensional and rather interesting.

[groinkick]

Yes, but again death is only an aspect of Mother Winter, so I don't see her as "Death."  As I said,
when I think of Death as a character I think, Grim Reaper as seen in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure among other movies where the Grim Reaper has appeared.  Death Takes a Holiday, where death assumes a mortal identity for three days, interesting old movie, the remake isn't nearly as good.  Death as he has appeared as a character on the Twilight Zone a few times, in all these cases it has been shown that Death, as a character can be multidimensional and rather interesting.

I could see that.  Kind of like what people think of Hades is wrong.  Death is actually a jovial, type being.  Has a sense of humor, and sympathetic to mortals. Thinks Mab is way too serious and an Ice Queen in desperate need of good humping (quoting a movie )

I see Mother Winter as an aspect of death like you said above but not THE Death.  Almost like a police officer while Death is the Chief of police.  This is consistant with the books too...  TWG has His angels to do tasks.  The Mothers have the Queen, Lady, and Knight to perform tasks.  Odin has his warriors.