Battle Grounds and Chandler

[groinkick]

Why should we make up what happened?

From a Chekov's gun perspective, it seems odd that Jim would WoJ that Chandler had this ability that kept him watched closely by the Senior Council

Even more reason to believe he was turned by Drakul.

Here are the realistic options I believe.

1.  He was turned to the Black Court
2.  He's alive and working with Drakul (Black Council?)
3.  He was sent to the Outside.  Harry asked what happened to people dragged there by those creatures and Eb's response was "We don't know".
4.  He killed him.
5.  Drakul has abucted him, and has bent him to his will via torture, mental manipulation, or something along those lines.  Those methods lead to insanity.  I don't think Langry himself could stand against Drakul's will for long.  Drakul is just at a whole new level of power. 


Whatever the case, it's bad.  I don't see Chandler being alive unless he's a bad guy, or driven insane from mind magic

[Larry Fowler]

Even more reason to believe he was turned by Drakul.

Here are the realistic options I believe.

1.  He was turned to the Black Court
2.  He's alive and working with Drakul (Black Council?)
3.  He was sent to the Outside.  Harry asked what happened to people dragged there by those creatures and Eb's response was "We don't know".
4.  He killed him.
5.  Drakul has abucted him, and has bent him to his will via torture, mental manipulation, or something along those lines.  Those methods lead to insanity.  I don't think Langry himself could stand against Drakul's will for long.  Drakul is just at a whole new level of power. 


Whatever the case, it's bad.  I don't see Chandler being alive unless he's a bad guy, or driven insane from mind magic

I tend more towards the Chandler was abducted scenario, Yet I can also envision a way for him to be alive and still on team «evil bastard».

The way I see it is that Drakul could have done a few things when he sent Chandler away.

1. Chandler was already on his team: he sent him to safety.(Team evil all along scenario)

2 Drakul sent to a holding place for his posterior motive.
 a. Poor Chandler might be turned,
 b. Simply killed after Drakul has gotten what he wanted from him
 c. convinced to join Team evil of his own volition
 d. tortured into insanity (first possibility where he could still be alive and not evil but damaged)
 e. kept prisoner for some unknown reason (second possibility where he could still be alive and not evil. But lets face it this one is unlikely)
 
 3. Drakul did a «sent to Outer Mongolia». Meaning he sent him away to simply get rid of him without any further plans for the poor Chandler. In which case
 a. Chandler is dead (sent in an inhospitable place like in the sun, in hell, outside of this reality or where ever you can imagine the poor lad)
 b. Chandler is alive but unable to come back hence his not coming back. I can see Chandler being sent in an inhospitable place and being in a constant fight for his life. (this is in my mind the most not unlikely scenario for him being alive without being on team evil. In this case Harry and Ramirez could have a reason to bridge their divide and go rescue him  ).

[Mira]

Why should we make up what happened?

Drakul is evil and amoral. He tossed Chandler wherever it amused him to do so, if they weren't working together. Chandler does have a rare gift, as a chronomancer. From a Chekov's gun perspective, it seems odd that Jim would WoJ that Chandler had this ability that kept him watched closely by the Senior Council, and then he just disappears when the other Wardens are largely devastated. Seems like he's a waste of pages- poor writing- if that's the case. It's a thin reed, but a reed, that the assumption that Chandler will return is based on.

Yup, and Harry's list of relatable allies has grown thin. 

[groinkick]

Yup, and Harry's list of relatable allies has grown thin.

By design.  The Black Council wants Harry off the White Council.  Mab wants Harry isolated so she can control him easier.  Harry is some sort of chess peice and different people are trying to use him for their own ends.

[Mira]

By design.  The Black Council wants Harry off the White Council.  Mab wants Harry isolated so she can control him easier.  Harry is some sort of chess peice and different people are trying to use him for their own ends.

Major chess pieces come in pairs, I can see Chandler perhaps eventually if he makes it back from where ever he is, as the new Summer Knight, he and Harry can fight what is to come together.

[Yuillegan]

Another hint that Chandler is turned is that was the central purpose Drakul came to Chicago for. He was only aiding Ethniu to further his own aims, based on the stars and stones, and clearly adding new recruits is central to that. Listens-to-Wind states as much when he realises why Drakul was even there. He already knew that Drakul didn't really care how the Battel of Chicago went, and he recognised that Drakul had a very good plan for getting what he wanted. The summoning of the dead would have caused such chaos that Drakul would have been able to abduct his targets whilst they were sufficiently distracted, but if they noticed him before he summoned the dead (which they did) those targets would have voluntarily come to him. Drakul wanted new recruits, and he got three. I can't imagine he was pleased at the loss of two potent Elders, but by the same token everything being Darwinian with those guys (just like Nicodemus) if you can't survive you weren't all that valuable either. Perhaps fresher recruits are better too for whatever reason. As others have pointed out, Chandler's gift of premonition via Chronomancy makes him very, very valuable. I'd say that alone makes a big difference, plus Chandler is British and 9 out of 10 villains in the Dresden Files are British or have British accents. So even if Chandler wasn't a bad guy before (which is debatable), he probably will be.

Major chess pieces come in pairs, I can see Chandler perhaps eventually if he makes it back from where ever he is, as the new Summer Knight, he and Harry can fight what is to come together.

Chandler is hardly Harry's matching pair though, not to mention Fix is still currently the Summer Knight. If anything, I would expect Elaine to be the Summer Knight next. Or Carlos...but he seems like he is being set up as the next Merlin (assuming the White Council continues to exist).

The Dresden Files wiki often says things that aren't confirmed in the texts. They're usually supported by something, but the wiki gets too conclusory on things that aren't conclusive and sometimes things like this that are pretty far from conclusive.

The wiki says that the Unseelie Accords were last updated in 1994. It's unclear if the Accords were updated or established then. They're citation is to SF where it doesn't even talk about the Accords.

Oh absolutely. No idea why Jim keeps saying he uses it. The site is full of conjecture and sometimes outdated information. Tbh I don't visit it much myself as there isn't much useful or accurate data. Might be good if you're new to the series and want to cover a lot of ground quickly, but hardly reliable. I tried to fix one of that pages too and the administrators didn't like it much, they were not all that receptive to feedback. Oh well.

[raidem]

This is somewhat out there but maybe Chandler is nemfected.  And Drakul not only wanted Chandler for his abilities but to acquire a possible nemfected agent.  This is mostly a thought that I haven't put much into but I really didn't see him as a bad guy before.  This might be a reason.

[morriswalters]

No idea why Jim keeps saying he uses it. The site is full of conjecture and sometimes outdated information. Tbh I don't visit it much myself as there isn't much useful or accurate data. Might be good if you're new to the series and want to cover a lot of ground quickly, but hardly reliable. I tried to fix one of that pages too and the administrators didn't like it much, they were not all that receptive to feedback. Oh well.

I don't think you've given it enough thought.  What should be blindingly obvious is that Mr Butcher doesn't keep good notes if he keeps notes at all.  Which is a poor plan if you are going to write a 25 book series over the course of 25 plus years. So the Wiki is as accurate as he needs it to be. Unlike the assorted WOJ's it's searchable and concise.

[groinkick]

This is somewhat out there but maybe Chandler is nemfected.  And Drakul not only wanted Chandler for his abilities but to acquire a possible nemfected agent.  This is mostly a thought that I haven't put much into but I really didn't see him as a bad guy before.  This might be a reason.

I suspect that he's dark side, and Drakul got him out much like Cowl saved his White Court vamp.  If Chandler comes back, I think it will be in the time travel book Jim mentioned.  Why that book?  Because WoJ says Chandler's special ability is about time, and information.

[groinkick]

Major chess pieces come in pairs, I can see Chandler perhaps eventually if he makes it back from where ever he is, as the new Summer Knight, he and Harry can fight what is to come together.

I don't mean any disrespect but I'm a bit perplexed with some of the discussion about Chandler.  His role in the books has been so small that I don't even remember him from the other books..  Carlos has had much more screen time.  I could see him becoming Summer Knight and be a type of foil to Dresden.

I just dont see why Chandler of all people is getting the type of treatment I'd expect for a more established character.  If LTW disapeared into the portal I could see people hoping, and theorizing how he's still gonna make it.  Chandler though??  Just confused a bit.

Do I see him coming back?  Yes I think so actually.  But not as a good guy who's made it.  Either as a Black Court Vamp, a willing accomplice, or someone who's been tortured, or mind warped into doing Drakul's bidding.

[Mira]

I don't mean any disrespect but I'm a bit perplexed with some of the discussion about Chandler.  His role in the books has been so small that I don't even remember him from the other books..  Carlos has had much more screen time.  I could see him becoming Summer Knight and be a type of foil to Dresden.

I just dont see why Chandler of all people is getting the type of treatment I'd expect for a more established character.  If LTW disapeared into the portal I could see people hoping, and theorizing how he's still gonna make it.  Chandler though??  Just confused a bit.

Do I see him coming back?  Yes I think so actually.  But not as a good guy who's made it.  Either as a Black Court Vamp, a willing accomplice, or someone who's been tortured, or mind warped into doing Drakul's bidding.

All you say is true, however brief what passed between him and Harry on the road while Carlos and company were giving him the third degree is significant I think.  Especially the bit about him being an agent of sorts for lack of a better word for Luccio.  Now it may come to nothing but it won't be the first time a seemingly minor character has played a significant role that reverberates through the whole series.  Consider Peabody, easily passed over and forgotten until Turn Coat.

[groinkick]

All you say is true, however brief what passed between him and Harry on the road while Carlos and company were giving him the third degree is significant I think.  Especially the bit about him being an agent of sorts for lack of a better word for Luccio.  Now it may come to nothing but it won't be the first time a seemingly minor character has played a significant role that reverberates through the whole series.  Consider Peabody, easily passed over and forgotten until Turn Coat.

ok fair enough.  Good points.  I wonder if this is also a way of bringing Luccio back.  She will come after Dresden, to find out what happened in his own words.  Maybe even tell him she needs his help finding Chandler, that she thinks he may still be alive.

[Bad Alias]

I fear Mr Butcher will go for the path that will optimise Harry suffering.

I find this viewpoint somewhat overplayed in the discussions here. Sure Jim isn't going to go easy on Harry, but the DF isn't the torture porn that we often see out there.

Why should we make up what happened?

What else are we going to do until Jim tells us what happened? 

Seems like he's a waste of pages- poor writing- if that's the case.

Not much more of a waste of pages than offing Wild Bill, whose death I'm way more upset about than Murphy's. As we're so often told, representation matters, so we need this awesome Texan character in the DF.

No idea why Jim keeps saying he uses it. The site is full of conjecture and sometimes outdated information. Tbh I don't visit it much myself as there isn't much useful or accurate data. Might be good if you're new to the series and want to cover a lot of ground quickly, but hardly reliable. I tried to fix one of that pages too and the administrators didn't like it much, they were not all that receptive to feedback. Oh well.

It's good for very basic info like spelling and character names. Like when I can't, but need to, remember Connie's last name or her father's first name (or if he even had one).

His role in the books has been so small that I don't even remember him from the other books.

He was in SmF fixing Luccio's tea, a position of trust. He was in TC guarding the Nevernever entrance to the Hidden Halls (White Council HQ). He was the guy who sent a note to Harry in Changes warning him not to come back to Edinburgh.

[Mira]

He was in SmF fixing Luccio's tea, a position of trust. He was in TC guarding the Nevernever entrance to the Hidden Halls (White Council HQ). He was the guy who sent a note to Harry in Changes warning him not to come back to Edinburgh.

Yes, that is why I think he is a significant under the radar character, much like Peabody was.  He popped up from time to time, most of us never gave him much thought until we found out he was doing mind control with his ink.. Oh there were hints before hand, references to his ink stained fingers for example, but not much to make a light bulb turn on that this was really a bad guy trying to undermine the whole White Council.  I think it the same for Chandler, there is a lot of under the radar references to unpack.  The latest is huge, he wasn't killed like the others to presumably go
off now as Black Court wizards making things harder for everyone, he was sent off somewhere, very much alive.  Perfect segway or excuse for Harry to travel to another dimension, maybe at the behest of Luccio in Mirror Mirror.  We like to talk about what Harry finds once he gets there but not so much the motive behind it, unless it was an accident. 

[Yuillegan]

Yes, that is why I think he is a significant under the radar character, much like Peabody was.  He popped up from time to time, most of us never gave him much thought until we found out he was doing mind control with his ink.. Oh there were hints before hand, references to his ink stained fingers for example, but not much to make a light bulb turn on that this was really a bad guy trying to undermine the whole White Council.  I think it the same for Chandler, there is a lot of under the radar references to unpack.  The latest is huge, he wasn't killed like the others to presumably go
off now as Black Court wizards making things harder for everyone, he was sent off somewhere, very much alive.  Perfect segway or excuse for Harry to travel to another dimension, maybe at the behest of Luccio in Mirror Mirror.  We like to talk about what Harry finds once he gets there but not so much the motive behind it, unless it was an accident.

That's a very good point. I'm not saying I am fully convinced I need to go back and look at things some more. But it's an interesting argument for Chandler actually being a bad guy.