Demonreach and the NeverNever

[EBRIEN]

We know the Gatekeeper knows how to get to the island via the Ways. With Harry's connection to Demonreach and his mother's "map" of the ways via his pentacle/gem, shouldn't he be able to expedite his journey to and from the island?

Also, with regard to opening a Way, didn't someone open a way to the island in Turncoat (or whichever one it was)? I can't imagine Harry would want people just popping over for say hello, but there seems that more than a couple probably know how to get there. If that's the case, does that open up Black Council possibilities?


Ok--Hope everyone is well. Have a fantastic weekend!

Brien

[Arjan]

I think Maeve was there as well. The spiders were winter creatures and her infection was still hidden from the readers at that time. She could have taken Peabody with her when she left. Peabody came to Chicago using the normal route the other wardens took as well.

Margaret might not have known so the jewel did not know either.

[Mira]

It may contain all the Ways, but some are safer than others to travel and some go through areas you want to stay clear of completely. 

[Arjan]

It may contain all the Ways, but some are safer than others to travel and some go through areas you want to stay clear of completely.

It contains the ways Margaret knew. That means it does not contain the ways Jim does not want Harry to know.

[The_Sibelis]

I've been figuring DR is MWs cottage for ages.. the traveling stone beside it is the lighthouse entrance to DR. This would thematically link DR and the outer gates. Nic wasn't lying about what was on the other side. If Harry hadn't met up with MW, a ghastly and unstoppable force, he might have accidentally sent himself to the battle at the gates.

[morriswalters]

I seen a lot of talk that it's Hell and has Lucifer. I'm not sure that Jim has made up his mind about it.  But the Black Council is already aware of it. Rashid doesn't portal directly to the island. He says the island holds a grudge. I suspect that Jim is going to dump the boat.  As a plot device it's unwieldy and consumes too much travel time. He pretty much jumped the shark by stopping the action for a boat ride and then by having Harry get attacked by a Kraken and having Molly zoom in on a pair of sharks.

[Mira]

It contains the ways Margaret knew. That means it does not contain the ways Jim does not want Harry to know.

Well, that is always the case, however I remember the Gatekeeper warning that the way he used in Turn Coat was very dangerous and implied that Harry might not be experienced enough to use it.  However having said that,  no one traveled a way from Chicago to the island that I know of.  I also remember with the exception of the Gatekeeper the Senior Council traveled there by boat.  Peabody didn't as we know, but most likely he also had help or an escort to do it.

[Yuillegan]

Interesting idea Ebrien. Generally it seems that, at least in the later books, a place in the mortal world corresponds to a similarly related place in the Never Never. Curiously, it was implied at one time it doesn't mean that there is only one place on the other side.

So it could go to the Mother's cottage. It could also go to any related dark place.

The way Nicodemus spoke about it though suggests there is a specific place that people cross through, so not just any prison or dark place in the spirit world.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was Hell, even if Nicodemus was confident of his ground. In fact, I am rather surprised he chose a place where he could get locked up for an eternity. I also believe if Hell were on the other side of Demonreach then surely he should have been able to draw on that advantage against Dresden.

But I do think it is probably some awful place, perhaps another famous spirit world prison. I would hazard a guess at either Celtic or Welsh or Native American mythos.

I don't really see the relationship between the Mother's cottage and a prison for demons/monsters myself but it is possible. Unless you think that the Cottage or perhaps Winter itself is imprisoning some terrible beings.

Another place could be Hades' Underworld. I am sure more than one person has speculated it's Tartarus on the other side...which would be suitably awful.

[Avernite]

Interesting idea Ebrien. Generally it seems that, at least in the later books, a place in the mortal world corresponds to a similarly related place in the Never Never. Curiously, it was implied at one time it doesn't mean that there is only one place on the other side.

So it could go to the Mother's cottage. It could also go to any related dark place.

The way Nicodemus spoke about it though suggests there is a specific place that people cross through, so not just any prison or dark place in the spirit world.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was Hell, even if Nicodemus was confident of his ground. In fact, I am rather surprised he chose a place where he could get locked up for an eternity. I also believe if Hell were on the other side of Demonreach then surely he should have been able to draw on that advantage against Dresden.

But I do think it is probably some awful place, perhaps another famous spirit world prison. I would hazard a guess at either Celtic or Welsh or Native American mythos.

I don't really see the relationship between the Mother's cottage and a prison for demons/monsters myself but it is possible. Unless you think that the Cottage or perhaps Winter itself is imprisoning some terrible beings.

Another place could be Hades' Underworld. I am sure more than one person has speculated it's Tartarus on the other side...which would be suitably awful.

I think a key question is, what is Demonreach really for.

I mean, we learned Hades' vault is an armory of weapons stored away because they're dangerous if misused. That same thing could sort of describe Demonreach, depending on just how much the Warden can use the inmates. If it's an armory of people, it might as well connect to Valhalla or Fólkvangr (or other places where the dead souls linger awaiting battle) rather than Tartaros (where the imprisoned are to suffer/be punished).

[Arjan]

There is no other reason to release them than a break of the gates and a massive outsider break through.

[Yuillegan]

I think a key question is, what is Demonreach really for.

I mean, we learned Hades' vault is an armory of weapons stored away because they're dangerous if misused. That same thing could sort of describe Demonreach, depending on just how much the Warden can use the inmates. If it's an armory of people, it might as well connect to Valhalla or Fólkvangr (or other places where the dead souls linger awaiting battle) rather than Tartaros (where the imprisoned are to suffer/be punished).

Well we know that some of the mechanics of the cells allow the Warden to choose the punishment of the inmate. But it's an intriguing idea that the prison is merely a front for it's real purpose. Perhaps as an armory or forge or even as a power source.

There is no other reason to release them than a break of the gates and a massive outsider break through.

But it's already been stated in Battle Ground that Harry could use the inmates as his own personal attack dogs or assistants or whatever. So there is clearly more than one use for them. Kemmler clearly had his own use for them...

[Arjan]

Well we know that some of the mechanics of the cells allow the Warden to choose the punishment of the inmate. But it's an intriguing idea that the prison is merely a front for it's real purpose. Perhaps as an armory or forge or even as a power source.
But it's already been stated in Battle Ground that Harry could use the inmates as his own personal attack dogs or assistants or whatever. So there is clearly more than one use for them. Kemmler clearly had his own use for them...

As far as we know Kemmler did not release any of the inmates.

[Mira]

As far as we know Kemmler did not release any of the inmates.

There is a lot we don't know about Kemmler, as in was he still Warden of Demonreach when he was taken down?  If he wasn't, why not?  I think whether or not Harry could use any of the inmates to
do his bidding is open to question.  Theoretically, according to what we know, yes.  However it that wise?  Harry has only barely scratched the surface as far as studying them, and runs the risk of insanity every time he does it..  Theoretically they are his prisoners to control, but in reality and practically is that true?  Here is a random thought, perhaps Kemmler did attempt to do just that and
was fired by Alfred for just that.  Merlin must of realized this kind of abuse of power could come about and there are controls, even on the Warden.

[BrainFireBob]

I personally favor Demonreach being intended for the original Darkhallow in conjunction with the Blackstaff to siphon off the taint- think of it as a cleansing ritual for the power inside. Recall that power has purpose- every nasty in Demonreach isn't doing its appointed job.

Kemmler could have been trying to adapt the ritual- or bulk himself up to withstand doing it on the island without the Blackstaff.

[morriswalters]

I think a key question is, what is Demonreach really for.

I mean, we learned Hades' vault is an armory of weapons stored away because they're dangerous if misused. That same thing could sort of describe Demonreach, depending on just how much the Warden can use the inmates. If it's an armory of people, it might as well connect to Valhalla or Fólkvangr (or other places where the dead souls linger awaiting battle) rather than Tartaros (where the imprisoned are to suffer/be punished).

Based off the statement from Alfred that they are always dangerous using them would seem for my point of view to indicate it a last resort.  But since wherever they are they aren't in this reality. If you closed the door in the future then then prison would be locked away from that reality since they never got out in the past. This is the kind of shenanigans you can get up to with time travel.