The Red Court vs. The Fomor

[KurtinStGeorge]

This isn't a who would win in a fight scenario.  I've been thinking about the Fomor; as one of the major powers in the story, and also looking at the few individuals we have seen of them, and I've come to a sad conclusion.  They are second rate villains, at least compared to the Red Court.  This is true if we look at the Fomor both as individuals and as a major power.  This makes the Fomor something less than compelling for me to read about.  There's an old saying that your story is only as good as your villain and the Red Court were pretty good at being villains.  That's true even if there is a greater power or powers that manipulated the vampires for their own ends.  To me the Red Court seemed to be scarier, more formidable and more compelling to read about, both as individuals and as a major supernatural power. 

Look at the major Fomor players we have seen so far.  (I don't remember their names, which IMO is a bad sign.)  There was the one that Marcone killed with a magic bullet in the short story Even Hand.  This Fomor managed to fight his way through Marcone's goons and get past Ms. Gard, but you would expect a supernatural heavy hitter to be able to do that or at least get close to doing that.  However, he was rather stupid; and with Gard's help Marcone suckered the Fomor Lord into a death trap. 

Then there was the one who set a bomb to go off at the Swaralf's party, whose plan was foiled by Molly.  OK, while Molly gained some experience working with Harry she was really taught how to think and fight by Lea, so Molly had at least one really good and ruthless teacher and an example of a mentor who never gives up.  However, Molly was still something of a newbie in the kind of covert mission Lea gave her, but despite the risks, setbacks and close calls she underwent, Molly thoroughly defeated the Fomor Lord's plan and publicly exposed his treachery.  Plus, he was something of a sniveling coward when he faced Mr. Etri's wrath.

Then there's King Korb.  I don't have to the exact quote, but Mab told Harry that Korb was more powerful, dangerous and treacherous than Harry, or words to that effect.  (If anyone wants to find the quote and post it here, I'd appreciate it.)  Personally, I found King Korb to be something of a joke.  Openly making himself Ethniu's slave wasn't much of a power move.  I'm surprised that Mab, or any of the major players at the peace talks didn't call him out for that, or Harry make some snarky comment on the subject.  Korb was cruel and vicious, but his henchman Listen is clearly smarter than he is.  Korb just wasn't impressive or really all that scary.  When the action was at it's hottest, King Korb was mostly overconfident, petulant or both.

The Fomor henchman Listen has been good at his job, but he's not really in Harry's league yet.  Listen would need a major power upgrade or have access to supernatural assets we have yet to see in order to make him into a truly dangerous and interesting foe.

The Fomor priest that Murphy fought in the short story Aftermath was a pretty dangerous opponent, but Murphy was just a vanilla mortal, so that bad guy was only a compelling enemy in that situation.  In a larger situation like we saw in Battle Ground, he would have been nothing more than another Fomor grunt.

The creatures that the Fomor can create are disgusting and have some sick and scary qualities, but by themselves they're just cannon fodder.

Now I don't want to look at everyone we met from the Red Court.  Mostly because I've written a lot already, but also because I don't think there are any really weak or boring Red Court characters.  So I'll focus on just one character, Bianca.  Bianca was the first sentient and dangerous nonhuman supernatural enemy we saw Harry match wits with.  For some time we have been able to discern that Bianca was manipulated by beings and powers smarter and far more powerful than herself, but that doesn't really matter.  At the time she went up against Harry, Bianca was scary, her motivations seemed fairly logical and her plan to take Harry down was a pretty smart one, overall. 

The beautiful person who is really giant blood sucking bat like creature underneath its pretty exterior camouflage was a really well developed idea that Jim came up with.  Add in that its saliva was addictive, so Red Court victims were often not just drained out, but made into willing vassals and slaves, made Bianca and her type both disgusting and frightening at the same time.

Bianca had been humiliated by Harry in her own home, at the very seat of her power.  Even if she hadn't been haunted by the ghost of her assistant and lover that she killed, Bianca still would have had good reason to want to get even with Harry.  And the thing is, Bianca's plan was a pretty good one.  Her chosen allies were properly distracting in the case of the Nightmare and powerful in the case of Mavra.  She also couldn't have known just how stubborn Harry could be.  A lot of other wizards would taken her deal to escape with their lives at the cost of someone else, especially if that someone else had already been half turned into one of the Red Court.  In their final confrontation, there was almost no way that Bianca could have figured out that Harry would make an inspired decision to call up the ghosts of her past victims to use against her, or that it would work, and no way she could have countered it.  Bianca just had really, really bad luck that day.  One more minor point.  Even her henchman and henchwomen, Kyle and Kellie Hamilton were pretty freaking creepy in their own right.

Finally, as a major power, the Fomor are somewhat nebulous.  They don't have a solid feel to them.  On the other hand, a nation of blood thirsty vampires is something truly nightmarish.  I don't think I need to say more than that.   

Mostly, I wrote this because I want to see if others agree with me, or if anyone thinks the opposite; sees things that I've missed that make the Fomor more compelling as villains than I do.  Also, I guess I'm hoping Drakul will be more interesting than what we've seen so far.  Drakul was in just a few brief scenes in BG so there's no way for us to know where Jim is going with this character, I just want something better than what we've had (so far) as a replacement for the creepiness', terror and fun that the Red Court brought to the table.     

[TheCuriousFan]

There's also the whole thing where they're pretty much off-screen until BG comes along (and promptly breaks things by revealing they had a god in their back pocket, why even sign the accords with that kind of power?) and even then don't live up to the description that Lea gave in GS.

[Mira]

  I think the nasties that Harry really has to worry about is the Black Court.  So far against them, Harry has come out on the short end of the stick, more or less.  As LTW said, fighting them and Drakul and surviving is considered a win..  So stay tuned.

[Avernite]

I agree; the Fomor are the chump villains.

There's a REASON they only became relevant when Harry wiped the Reds, and Harry's probably ended them by imprisoning Ethniu (along with the losses in Chicago). There will be more henchmen of the Fomor kind, same as Ghouls keep occuring, but they're done and dusted. The chump villain to replace the big ones, who fall quickly as we move on into the final stretch where Harry faces off with the REAL nasty powers of the world (who previously manipulated him) - Hell/Marcone, Dragons, White Council, Odin and Winter.

edit to add: we see this especially in Skin Game. The villain of the story is Nicodemus but the Fomor manage to be the warm-up enemy, and they are a threat according to that level. Or Ghost Story, where Leah abuses some Fomor goons to teach Molly/Harry, who are way beyond being actually threatened by them on a normal day, while Corpsetaker is the real menace.

[The_Sibelis]

Idk, king corb might have his day..  especially when you consider the prophecy of what will happen before he dies...
The real threat from them is what they represent. Natural entropy. Besides the discourse on water magic and what not in the books. Norse mythology. Fire and ice are the two competing forces of reality and when the immovable object hits the unstoppable force the third power that wins out is water. Fire... Ice.. water.. see the themes here? I think they'll be part of the fall of the courts themselves. Especially when you consider how weak the fae look from taking them on. Without Mab and Harry the day was already lost. They even needed plain mortals to help, needed it.
Think it came up on FB not here iirc, but BG made the supernatural world look alot smaller, and not just because of the few representatives who showed up, but by how little muscle they had to flex.

[vincentric]

The Formor were always going to be a more limited threat because they are limited to areas with large bodies of water. If the series were set in Hawaii or Japan or even Great Britain, I'd expect them to be major players because their limitations would be less in play.

They will always be somewhat of a threat because they have the best defensive home advantage of all the powers in the mortal world. But they will always be limited by needing servants to do anything except acts of violence. Their appearance just won't allow them to infiltrate the way the Reds, Whites, and even the Sidhe can.

Plus the overarching adversaries of the series are the Outsiders. They are using all the powers of the world to reach their goals but they work their biggest plots through trickery, bribery and subversion. I think the rest of the series before the BAT will be focused on the plots the Outsiders throw at the world in these ways and Harry's challenge will be thwarting the dupes and allies they are using.

[KurtinStGeorge]

There's also the whole thing where they're pretty much off-screen until BG comes along (and promptly breaks things by revealing they had a god in their back pocket, why even sign the accords with that kind of power?) and even then don't live up to the description that Lea gave in GS.

Lea's description of the Fomor in Ghost Story:
“Once, they were the enemies of my people, Winter and Summer alike,” she said, lifting her chin as her emerald eyes grew distant. “We banished them to the sea. Now they are the exiles of myth and legend, the outcasts of the gods and demons of every land bordering the sea. Defeated giants, fallen gods, dark reflections of beings of light. They are many races and none, joined together beneath the banner of the Fomor in a common cause.”

Yes, from this statement it sounds like the Fomor should have had more than one old god (Ethniu) and a number of clearly identifiable demons on their side.  I understand it would be difficult for any writer to fashion an army with specific characteristics from such a vague description as "the exiles of myths and legend," but then the problem is with the original description. 

Idk, king corb might have his day..  especially when you consider the prophecy of what will happen before he dies...

I'm not looking at the prophecy as I write this, but as I remember it King Korb living until the sun burns out could easily be fulfilled by having him locked up under Demonreach until the end of time.

The real threat from them is what they represent. Natural entropy. Besides the discourse on water magic and what not in the books. Norse mythology. Fire and ice are the two competing forces of reality and when the immovable object hits the unstoppable force the third power that wins out is water. Fire... Ice.. water.. see the themes here? I think they'll be part of the fall of the courts themselves. Especially when you consider how weak the fae look from taking them on. Without Mab and Harry the day was already lost. They even needed plain mortals to help, needed it.
Think it came up on FB not here iirc, but BG made the supernatural world look a lot smaller, and not just because of the few representatives who showed up, but by how little muscle they had to flex.

That is an interesting take on the Fomor and you may be on to something.  On the other hand, the Fomor were held in check by ordinary mortals with shotguns, and their champion; the last Titan, was defeated by the first vanilla mortal free holding Lord of the supernatural world, with the help of one mortal wizard.  The Battle of Chicago didn't do the Fomor's reputation much good either.

More important from a reading perspective, your perception that the Fomor represent natural entropy of the supernatural world; or at least the fae's place in the supernatural world, doesn't make the Fomor more viscerally entertaining as bad guys.
     

I agree; the Fomor are the chump villains.

There's a REASON they only became relevant when Harry wiped the Reds, and Harry's probably ended them by imprisoning Ethniu (along with the losses in Chicago). There will be more henchmen of the Fomor kind, same as Ghouls keep occuring, but they're done and dusted. The chump villain to replace the big ones, who fall quickly as we move on into the final stretch where Harry faces off with the REAL nasty powers of the world (who previously manipulated him) - Hell/Marcone, Dragons, White Council, Odin and Winter.

edit to add: we see this especially in Skin Game. The villain of the story is Nicodemus but the Fomor manage to be the warm-up enemy, and they are a threat according to that level. Or Ghost Story, where Leah abuses some Fomor goons to teach Molly/Harry, who are way beyond being actually threatened by them on a normal day, while Corpsetaker is the real menace.

You're not wrong; in fact, IMO you've pretty much nailed it.  However from my perspective, even the ghouls have been more entertaining, and that's really what I'm getting at.  in this discussion, I'm not greatly interested in where the Fomor fit in, in the greater scheme of things.  I am concerned with how they (How can I put this?  I got it), how they play their role within the overall story.  The Red Court turned out to be the warm up act within the larger arc of the story, but they never came off that way on the written page.  They were always dangerous, scary and it was just plain fun to read Harry's battles with them, both big and small.  Even Morgan's description of the Red Court in a battle that Harry wasn't at, was entertaining.
   

  I think the nasties that Harry really has to worry about is the Black Court.  So far against them, Harry has come out on the short end of the stick, more or less.  As LTW said, fighting them and Drakul and surviving is considered a win..  So stay tuned.

Maybe, but mostly Mavra has been an impressive and challenging villain for Harry to fight, negotiate or just banter with.  The other Elders in BG didn't come across any stronger than Mavra's flunkies in BR.  They were something of a letdown.  You are right about Drakul.  We will have to wait and see what his role is and how well the character fulfills it.   

[Con]

Red Court had territory from Nevada down to the entire Central and Southern America.

Arguably the Oceans are bigger but less population, still waiting for an Atlantis reference on that front.

There's also the fact The Fomor pissed off the entire Unseelie Accords for there major assault. Red Court more or less picked there battles except when it came to the Fae Courts.

Having said that the empirical evidence is that Harry took on the Red Court in the heart of there Empire and Power with a strike team and annihilated all of them.

The Fomor launched an attack on Harry's, Marcone and the White Court centre of power not to mention vadderung, Erlking 4 Faerie Queens and there forces. Fomor survived the attack but did major damage to Chicago heartland.

[forumghost]

  I think the nasties that Harry really has to worry about is the Black Court.  So far against them, Harry has come out on the short end of the stick, more or less.  As LTW said, fighting them and Drakul and surviving is considered a win..  So stay tuned.

Yep I can't wait to find out that Drakul was able to use the Knowledge in the Word of Kemmler to revive the Black Court Elders and restore them to the height of their powers, all because Harry likes to think with his Dick.

Murphy may break the limitation on her own resurrection out of pure, unbridled fury when she finds out.

[morriswalters]

Jim used 12 books to set up the Reds. And he built them up so they had menace.  For instance the attack on Archangel, you only see it in the reflection of it's results and it's scary. One of his better pieces of storytelling.

On the other hand here come the Fomor kill all the humans and then talk trash. Then declare war.  I can imagine every reader thinking, WTF?  What was the Titan thinking? Tell the enemy that you're coming and give them time to get set? This is like the allies telling Hitler that they were hitting the beach at Normandy on D day at first light and inviting him to concentrate his forces there. How dumb is that?

I'm gonna be uncharitable and suggest that this is the result of the book being split. He needed a break for a boating trip to Demonreach. It makes the Formor look silly without intending to be.

[Mira]

On the other hand here come the Fomor kill all the humans and then talk trash. Then declare war.  I can imagine every reader thinking, WTF?  What was the Titan thinking? Tell the enemy that you're coming and give them time to get set? This is like the allies telling Hitler that they were hitting the beach at Normandy on D day at first light and inviting him to concentrate his forces there. How dumb is that?

Agreed, but I think the point of telegraphing it is terror, that and dividing humanity against itself.
There are those who won't believe what is happening to them if it bit them on the butt, but they have to blame somebody.  We saw some of that at the end of Battle Ground, while the Accords signers were afraid that the attack would turn humanity against the supernatural, the powers that be were coming up with alternative explanations so the people wouldn't believe their own eyes and experience.  That is how the Fomor has gotten away with all the kidnappings like they have over the years.

[Kindler]

Jim used 12 books to set up the Reds. And he built them up so they had menace.  For instance the attack on Archangel, you only see it in the reflection of it's results and it's scary. One of his better pieces of storytelling.

On the other hand here come the Fomor kill all the humans and then talk trash. Then declare war.  I can imagine every reader thinking, WTF?  What was the Titan thinking? Tell the enemy that you're coming and give them time to get set? This is like the allies telling Hitler that they were hitting the beach at Normandy on D day at first light and inviting him to concentrate his forces there. How dumb is that?

I'm gonna be uncharitable and suggest that this is the result of the book being split. He needed a break for a boating trip to Demonreach. It makes the Formor look silly without intending to be.

I think it might've been effective without Marcone. Seeing (an apparent) vanilla mortal stand up to a Titan who just kicked Mab through multiple walls and declared war on the planet, then immediately turn around and start giving orders had an impact. It was the best scene in Peace Talks, bar none. You saw the ghouls turn and try to leave. I wouldn't have been surprised if others followed. But the point is that you had someone there to shame everyone who was thinking about bailing into staying. Maybe Odin or the Erlking would've filled that role without Marcone, and it probably wouldn't have been terribly effective, but it might have convinced one or more factions that fighting was stupid. I'm 99% certain Ferrovax wouldn't have done... whatever the hell he was doing during BG without the public display, at least.

Anyway, on topic, I agree. The Fomor appear to be pretty weak and fairly chumpy as villains. Kind of like that season of Buffy where the main villains were three nerds pretending to be supervillains, and who managed to kill one of the core cast and drive another into murderous, insane rage. Chumpy and lame on their own, and their planning really does suck, but hey, we've lost more major characters in the few books they've been on the page than we did in the entire series up till now.

The other side is that Harry is WAY less of a chump now than he ever was when the Reds were a threat. We all know the details of his powerups since Dead Beat first gave him Hellfire. He's got a lot of serious power now, and allies to match. Plus his attitude is different. He didn't go looking for fights when the Reds were the boogeymen. Now he freezes background jerks to death just to make a point.

I don't think the Reds would've come off nearly as threatening as they used to if Harry met them now. I think most of these villains are probably just as chumpy as the Fomor are.

Except for Cowl, Marcone, Nicodemus. You know, the ones who mostly focus on outmaneuvering Harry rather than trying to beat him in a fistfight.

[Mira]

   I think becoming Warden of Demonreach has given Harry a new perspective on things, as has
gaining the Artifacts and now the Eye.  With great power comes great responsibility

I think it might've been effective without Marcone. Seeing (an apparent) vanilla mortal stand up to a Titan who just kicked Mab through multiple walls and declared war on the planet, then immediately turn around and start giving orders had an impact. It was the best scene in Peace Talks, bar none. You saw the ghouls turn and try to leave. I wouldn't have been surprised if others followed. But the point is that you had someone there to shame everyone who was thinking about bailing into staying. Maybe Odin or the Erlking would've filled that role without Marcone, and it probably wouldn't have been terribly effective, but it might have convinced one or more factions that fighting was stupid. I'm 99% certain Ferrovax wouldn't have done... whatever the hell he was doing during BG without the public display, at leas

I agree, but was that Marcone speaking or Namshiel? 

[Bad Alias]

I agree, but was that Marcone speaking or Namshiel?

Marcone. Harry's always been able to notice whether it was the human or the Fallen speaking.

[TrueMonk]

I think Ethniu needed the air to be supercharged with fear and the barrier between the never-never and reality to be weakened, so she would be able to use the eye frequently. And & think she needed that to happen before she faced of against the big hitters. That would give them a pretty big warning anyway, so she tried to make something of it.

She had to win against Mab that day, because if the outer gates were not under attack winters forces would be too large.