New microfiction on the site

[deadvoid]

But did he commit suicide? Not according to some woj I remember vaguely.

Nicodemus has committed enough cardinal sins to get straight to hell but the knights still try to save him. Uriel and others tell us that as long as you are alive and you have free will you can make choices and you are not definitively lost. You can still work to improve your soul.

Apparently that extend to bodiless wandering souls as long as they don’t go to what is next. Harry and Collin. Between seems to be set up for this goal. Uriel gives them the chance to make choices and Collin made use of that.

This is Jim’s world and he does not follow all Christianity’s dogmas. The impression I get is that you shape your soul with the free willed choices you make and that shaping is not completed until you die and go on to what is next and that is not Between.

Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ

Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.

[morriswalters]

Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell.  The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive.  They represent  Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".

If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil.  You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.

[Arjan]

Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ

Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.

https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/

Audience member: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him?

Jim: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him?  (smirking) Who says he killed himself?  (lots of audience reaction) You know, they just found him there and it, you know, looked like a suicide.

Another audience member: And the forums explode. (more reaction)

Jim: Oh, come on, I said this in like Kansas City and they had the YouTube video up like five minutes after I was finished talking.

But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.

[Arjan]

Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell. 

Harry died. His soul left his body. He just was not gone, the distinction is clearly made in the books.

The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive.  They represent  Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".

That is about returning to life. It is what Bob told him, dead can be reversible. But also about what Lash said, you have to die to understand certain things and now he did.

If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil.  You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.

It is mainly about the let the world burn mentality and what he did to Molly. Harry breaks himself about killing Susan but that was not the point, Susan wanted it and for good reasons. I do not think the killing of Susan was considered evil at all. There was not that much attention to it given in ghost story as a thing Harry had to learn about.

[deadvoid]

https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/

But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.

Thanks for the link. if Collin Murphy didn't committing suicide then the question about his soul going to hell for cardinal sin isn't relevant anymore. I never looked into Collin's history by WoJ or how loose the rules of christianity got adapted (aside from magic/supernatural aspects) btw, so my view was based only from what's written in the books & my vague recollection on what religious people there expected to find in afterlife (Hades' words, Charmichaels).

I don't disagree with what you described for souls in Between (that works for Uriel), but I do still wonder about religious souls with cardinal sins, like perhaps what would happen to those who committed patricide but didn't seek redemption before they died, from brief grepping can't find any canon on that subject in WoJ.

[morriswalters]

Harry died. His soul left his body. He just was not gone, the distinction is clearly made in the books.

Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls.  However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead. To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.

According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them.  Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.

[Mira]

That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell

  I was told that they have modified that doctrine a bit, depending on whether or not the person was mentally ill or not at the time.  Captain Jack is in sort of a purgatory, neither Heaven or Hell, perhaps the only choice he has is whether or not he wants to earn a ticket to Heaven by working for Uriel.

[Arjan]

Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls.  However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead.

that is according to the definition of dead used by everyone with understanding in and outside the books from Mab and Lea to Jim.

Ghost story is pretty clear about it.

To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.

There is Lazarus and if memory not deceives me several other nameless ones. Besides Jim is not bound to Christian mythology alone.

Lea especially was quite clear:

“With significant capability,” Lea replied, stressing the phrase. “When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”

He had passed the threshold between life and dead. With other words he was dead.

According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them.  Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.

According to articles on the web I read the catholic stance on suicide softened somewhat lately. It is still wrong but depression and so on can be mitigating factors.

[deadvoid]

Clearly if he was a ghost he was dead, since ghosts aren't souls.  However if his soul was wandering around, he wasn't dead. To the best of my knowledge in Cristian mythology only one man has been raised from the dead.

According to Wikipedia there are seven cardinal sins and suicide isn't one of them.  Suicide is a mortal sin and condemns you to hell. Colin appears to be in purgatory.

good point on the difference between cardinal (sins that lead to other sins) & mortal sins.

Somehow I'm under the impression that ghost & spirit are interchangeable in Dresdenverse, remnants or echo of lost souls wandering in the world because they couldn't move on, while soul is, well what Uriel said
 

I was told that they have modified that doctrine a bit, depending on whether or not the person was mentally ill or not at the time.  Captain Jack is in sort of a purgatory, neither Heaven or Hell, perhaps the only choice he has is whether or not he wants to earn a ticket to Heaven by working for Uriel.

yeah i took a quick peek on the precise definition from catholic cathecism, based on morriswalters correction

In Roman Catholic moral theology, a mortal sin requires that all of the following conditions are met:

- Its subject matter must be grave. (The term "grave sin" is used at times to indicate grave matter, and at times to indicate mortal sin. But it always remains true that the following two conditions are requisite for mortal sin.)
- It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.
- It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

so the 2nd point determines whether the act of sin committed is grave enough to be mortal or venial sin

As for Collin, I think he took the job under Uriel either because like Harry he needed to know what happened to him that led to his death, then decided that working for Uriel aligns/serves his ideals/purpose of vocation such as justice & family, or Uriel offered him the job because he was already closer to supernatural world than other humans when he worked in Special Division. Meaning he was righteous enough as a person to earn Uriel's respect

[morriswalters]

This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned.  Lea is mistaken.

“Dead is a grey word,” Mab hissed. “Mortals fear it, and so they wish it to be black—and they have but few words to contain its reality. It escapes from such constraints. Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you, my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 575). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is.  Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.

If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right.  Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible.  Oh well.

[Mira]

This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned.  Lea is mistaken.Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is.  Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.

If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right.  Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible.  Oh well.

Yup, the Archive knew what she was asking/demanding of Kincaid.  And actually when you think about it, Kincaid knew as well, so he took Harry's money, but didn't kill him because the heart shot gave Harry a slim chance at life.

[Arjan]

This isn't my first rodeo where this topic is concerned.  Lea is mistaken.Here's what Jim really thinks. You ain't dead until your brain is.  Which Jim uses in a microfiction he has the Archive to tell Kincaid not to take the head shot. Corpsetaker was never alive in the true sense, but she is in hell, so what the hell, I forgive her.

If I'm gonna be wrong about something I aver, I do it right.  Ten people are raised from the dead in the Bible.  Oh well.

That was just convenient. Someone else’s body would have worked just as well as corpstaker tried to prove and Kemmler did. There is something significant with the threshold between life and dead.

But it is border territory here so maybe there is no true right or wrong but I think a definition like you came back so you were never dead robs the Dresden verse of its supernatural elements, proves lash and so many others who know better wrong and ignores the difference between dead and gone Bob introduced and Mab’s grey word.

Harry was dead but not yet gone

And yes resurrection was rather common in those days :-) And that were only those mentioned in the New Testament. They probably forgot to mention a few.

And Jim told us several times that Harry was dead and never denied it.

[morriswalters]

You haven't heard an a definition of death sourced from me yet.  These are all Jim's ideas. Death in the Dverse means absolutely nothing. It's the most aggravating thing in the books.

[Mira]

That was just convenient. Someone else’s body would have worked just as well as corpstaker tried to prove and Kemmler did. There is something significant with the threshold between life and dead.

But it is border territory here so maybe there is no true right or wrong but I think a definition like you came back so you were never dead robs the Dresden verse of its supernatural elements, proves lash and so many others who know better wrong and ignores the difference between dead and gone Bob introduced and Mab’s grey word.

Harry was dead but not yet gone

And yes resurrection was rather common in those days :-) And that were only those mentioned in the New Testament. They probably forgot to mention a few.

And Jim told us several times that Harry was dead and never denied it.

For the Corpsetaker perhaps, but the previous owner of the body usually does die after she has taken it over.

[Arjan]

For the Corpsetaker perhaps, but the previous owner of the body usually does die after she has taken it over.

Not for Lucio who ended up in a different body but still lives.