Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry

[Mira]

Don't forget the forced empathy for Rudolph, the intent was nicer but the sword did the same thing that the WK mantle did in twisting Harry's emotional state in a desired direction.

It did what it needed to do.  Harry didn't feel empathy for Rudolph, but at the day care, he knew that Rudolph wasn't playing with a full deck either.  In other words, Harry was very rational about him, so was Bradley, Rudolph was knocked out so the kids could be gotten to safety.  However Harry had other problems and in the confusion, Rudolph came to with a gun with in reach.  He took it and in his insane panic murdered Murphy senselessly.  At that point in his emotional response to her murder, it was impossible for Harry to respond rationally.  He responded with rage, the reptilian parts of his brain responded and screamed for retribution.  Harry is no normal human that can be grabbed and pinned down until he came to his senses again, he is a wizard.  Not only a wizard, but the Winter Knight, with a mantle that was screaming "HEEHA" adding all the fuel it could to the rage.

It wasn't until the shock of the Holy burn from the Sword cut though it all, was he able to come to his senses, and yeah, again feel a degree of empathy for Rudolph.  However it won't be till Rudolph is actually tried, if he is tried, and Harry forgives him will we know if the empathy is real or not.

Nothing about it worries me at all.  He's a fictional character.  Jim's did it for a reason and you are getting my opinion on what the reason is. There is a reason for showing Harry experiencing that loss of control.  Jim has Harry quote a line from Marvel comics.  "With great power comes great responsibility." Is this suddenly not true in the canon of the books because Harry is having a bad day? In the real world I don't know any crime lords or superheroes. Nor do I have any desire to.  In Battle Ground these fictional caharacters kill 60000 people.  Why would you want to know them?

Yes, but in the moment of Murphy's death, Harry cannot be held responsible for his first reaction.

A friend got me moving out of the house. For the record it never occurred to me to attack him.  Unless there is an underlying mental illness you can't maintain that level of anger for very long.  It drains you.  There is even a nickname for what happens. Amygdala hijack.

Why do you think your friend got you moving out of the house?  Maybe it never occurred to you to attack him, but apparently it did to him.  Otherwise, why remove you?
And his friends attempted to do just that.  However the reaction to Murphy's death set off the mantle in a moment when Harry wasn't capable of controlling it, the only thing that could stop it was an archangel, sent a shock to reboot Harry's brain and he could gain control once more.

[Mira]

I mean I feel like the real difference in Harry's case is that when he snapped and went after Rudolph he was no longer in a position to keep the Winter Knight in Check.

Harry was not running the show there until Butter's snapped him back out of it- it was evident in the way he was happy that Sanya was there because "Yay, he'd put up more of a fight" and the way he referred to Rudolph as "that thing". It was very much reminiscent of when he leaned too hard on the Mantle at the end of Cold Days.

Exactly.. 

If it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.

They wanted to prevent him from doing harm knowing full well that he wasn't responsible for what he was doing at the moment. 

Really?  You've never lost your temper in your whole life?  You've always been lucky enough that nothing has touched you emotionally enough to where you'd lose control?  What went on in Harry's head when he witnessed Murphy's senseless murder went beyond anger..  The real world is full of good people who've lost it for good reasons but did serious harm because no one was there to stop them.  Emotions are a double edged sword, everyone has them, most of the time we keep them in control, but everyone has their limit.  Harry has worked on control all of his life, when he realized that Lasciel and the use of Hell Fire was pushing him unknowingly out of control, he put a damper on it.  When he realized the power of the Winter Knight's mantle and what it does, he worked very hard to counter it's effects on him.. That is what he was doing on the beach that morning when Ramirez paid him that visit..  But Murphy's murder pushed him over the edge, a very normal reaction, but dangerous given his power and strength, the Winter Knight's mantle added fuel..  When it was over it was over..  Harry isn't some out of control brutal monster unfit to raise little Maggie, or someone you cannot trust as a friend, on the contrary.

[Arjan]

But he can become one. A lot of the story is based on that.

[Mira]

But he can become one. A lot of the story is based on that.

No one is saying he cannot, he is aware of it, that is why he is trying so hard to control it.  That is
another reason for his shame because that burn made him aware of how close he came to it.  If he had succeeded in killing Rudolph I believe he could have very well gone past the point of no return.  He has been fighting the mantle ever since he agreed to take it up.

[morriswalters]

@Mira
You just pushed a wall of text at me arguing a point I'm not making.  I'm not seeking to hold a fictional character responsible for anything. I'm suggesting that Jim is writing a character who is an antithesis of who the character professes to be.  The point is did Justin, the character, shape Harry to be what he becomes when he is enraged. I've been referring to Grave Peril but that was a mistake in attribution.  It's Blood Rites.

"No," Ebenezar said. "You've got to breathe, boy. Think."

I started gathering power. "Kill him. Kill him. Everything. All of it. Nothing left."

"Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."

I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.

And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.

There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him.  He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.

[Bad Alias]

No one is going to kill his love again in the middle of a war that depends completely on him.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. 

I've been referring to Grave Peril but that was a mistake in attribution.  It's Blood Rites.There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him.  He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.

In GP he did lose control and was only stopped by his heart stopping.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Harry because I'm genre savvy. How many of the people close to him have had horrible fates befall them? A lot of it, most in fact, wasn't Harry's fault. Doesn't change the fact I wouldn't want to be collateral damage. (Technically, only property can be collateral damage. Injury and death is called incidental injury). It's kind of like hanging out with a cartel member. You could end up dead just because you were near them.

[forumghost]

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Harry because I'm genre savvy. How many of the people close to him have had horrible fates befall them? A lot of it, most in fact, wasn't Harry's fault. Doesn't change the fact I wouldn't want to be collateral damage. (Technically, only property can be collateral damage. Injury and death is called incidental injury). It's kind of like hanging out with a cartel member. You could end up dead just because you were near them.

Yeah, nothing against Harry, but the sensible response to Dresden is to decide, "fuck that, I'm going to move to Europe/Asia/Australia/etc", that should be far enough to avoid the splash zone.

[Mira]

There is no Mantle at this point and Lash has not yet surfaced although she may be influencing him.  He will also go a little crazy at Camp Kaboom. This has been ongoing throughout the series.

  Yes, he did, he had just witnessed a couple of teenage warden apprentices being murdered and eaten by Ghouls.. Yeah, it made him a little crazy for a while.  You ever see the movie about the war hero Audie Murphy, true story? After his friend was cut down, he went a little nuts too, taking out several German machine gun nests all by himself and he didn't spare anyone.  And yes, Harry was under Lasciel's influence then, it was pre-Lash, that is how he could understand the speech of the Ghouls.

I'm suggesting that Jim is writing a character who is an antithesis of who the character professes to be. 

I understand what you are suggesting, what I am saying is you are mistaken.  Harry has never professed to be a saint, he has made mistakes as we all do. 

"No," Ebenezar said. "You've got to breathe, boy. Think."

I started gathering power. "Kill him. Kill him. Everything. All of it. Nothing left."

"Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."

I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.

And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.

Again, this isn't an evil person speaking, nor even a calculating one.. He is injured, quite severely, lots of pain, vulnerable emotionally and he just learned a hell of a lot that he wasn't prepared for. It is revealed to him who murdered his mother.  Again, his reaction is very normal.  Eb even confesses that he, himself tried to go after Raith, but he couldn't kill him, he is protected.  Yes, Harry's thoughts are ugly, violent, but natural that he'd want to go after the person who did it..  I've had those thoughts too, a friend's dog was shot in his own yard by some thrill seekers, jerks.  Did I act on those thoughts? No, but let us say I didn't wish whoever did it, well.

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting Harry's reactions stem from some thing that Justin created, this huge character flaw in Harry.  If it is, it is a very human one, no, he isn't a bad man appearing to be good.  Your examples do not prove your point.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near Harry because I'm genre savvy. How many of the people close to him have had horrible fates befall them? A lot of it, most in fact, wasn't Harry's fault. Doesn't change the fact I wouldn't want to be collateral damage. (Technically, only property can be collateral damage. Injury and death is called incidental injury). It's kind of like hanging out with a cartel member. You could end up dead just because you were near them.

Or if you know Harry well at all and profess to be his friend, you know perfectly well if there is a shit fest Harry is going to be in the middle of the cesspool combating it.  If you want to be any where near it some of that smelly brown stuff is going to hit you in the process.  Yet they do it over and over again.

Yeah, nothing against Harry, but the sensible response to Dresden is to decide, "fuck that, I'm going to move to Europe/Asia/Australia/etc", that should be far enough to avoid the splash zone.

Yeah, yet they do it over and over again and they don't even wear a raincoat..

[TheCuriousFan]

It did what it needed to do.  Harry didn't feel empathy for Rudolph, but at the day care, he knew that Rudolph wasn't playing with a full deck either.  In other words, Harry was very rational about him, so was Bradley, Rudolph was knocked out so the kids could be gotten to safety.  However Harry had other problems and in the confusion, Rudolph came to with a gun with in reach.  He took it and in his insane panic murdered Murphy senselessly.  At that point in his emotional response to her murder, it was impossible for Harry to respond rationally.  He responded with rage, the reptilian parts of his brain responded and screamed for retribution.  Harry is no normal human that can be grabbed and pinned down until he came to his senses again, he is a wizard.  Not only a wizard, but the Winter Knight, with a mantle that was screaming "HEEHA" adding all the fuel it could to the rage.

It wasn't until the shock of the Holy burn from the Sword cut though it all, was he able to come to his senses, and yeah, again feel a degree of empathy for Rudolph.  However it won't be till Rudolph is actually tried, if he is tried, and Harry forgives him will we know if the empathy is real or not.

Again you miss what I'm saying, the sword didn't just deliver a shock it also forced empathy down Harry's throat as forcefully as the WK mantle was sending him anger. Nicer goal but same overall method of going "you're going to feel what I want you to feel".

I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.

[Mira]

Again you miss what I'm saying, the sword didn't just deliver a shock it also forced empathy down Harry's throat as forcefully as the WK mantle was sending him anger. Nicer goal but same overall method of going "you're going to feel what I want you to feel".

No, I don't miss what you are saying, I don't think you understand what I am saying.  The mantle was goosing up the anger that Harry already felt when Murphy was murdered.  The burn was a bucket of ice water that cut through that.  Harry is already a pretty empathic type of guy, the burn was telling him to look again at what he is seeing?  A murderer or the pathetic scared coward that he has seen just minutes before Murphy was murdered.  Brought back to himself, Harry saw the pathetic scared man. The burn didn't force him to feel that, it brought him back to who he was, then he saw that.

[Arjan]

Maybe the sword went one step further than just cancelling the rage and letting Harry look at the situation with a clear head.

[Mira]

Maybe the sword went one step further than just cancelling the rage and letting Harry look at the situation with a clear head.

Exactly, that is what it did, Harry was in emotional crisis, it halted that and suddenly he was able to listen to Butters, to think again.  When someone is in that kind of state, they cannot think it becomes all instinct.  Harry's instinct was to kill the guy who killed his love, the mantle goosed that instinct.  Yes, suddenly with the burn Harry saw it from Rudolph's perspective, but if his natural empathy hadn't already been present, he would of said, "fuck that, it's no excuse, he deserves to die.."  But that isn't the true Harry, he came back and was able to listen to Butters, they need the true Harry, not a murderer.

[morriswalters]

I understand what you are suggesting, what I am saying is you are mistaken. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting Harry's reactions stem from some thing that Justin created, this huge character flaw in Harry.  If it is, it is a very human one, no, he isn't a bad man appearing to be good.  Your examples do not prove your point.

There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type.  It's explicit in the text. First in Summer Knight.

She shot him a look and said pointedly, "He's arrogant, Ebenezar. Dangerous."

I snorted. "That's every wizard ever."

Martha continued as if I hadn't spoken. "Bitter. Angry. Obsessive."

Ebenezar frowned. "Seems to me he has good reason to be. You and the rest of the Senior Council saw to that."

Martha shook her head. "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."

Then again in Ghost Story.

“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 353). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

And last in the microfiction Journal

Perhaps I have been too hard on him. Perhaps I really have become paranoid and mad. Perhaps I have wronged a good man. But there is too much at stake to take that chance. The thought of allowing a Destroyer to be birthed among us when I could have stopped it is too heavy to bear.
To those who come after me and read this… well. History will be my judge.

If you want to do lasting mental damage to a child, Jim's treatment of young Harry is exactly how you would go about it. What I'm suggesting is that the destroyer in the microfiction is a Norse being called a berserker. this has nothing to do with if  Harry is good or evil. It speaks specifically to the question, why is the Council so afraid of Harry.

[Bad Alias]

There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type.  It's explicit in the text.

There's also a good one about what he's learned from Lea as his godmother. I can't remember if it was from SK or CD. If it was SK, it's when he first talks to the Summer Lady in the rooftop garden. If it's CD, it's when he talks to another Summer Lady in another garden.

[groinkick]

There is no doubt that Harry was programed as a weapon of some type.  It's explicit in the text. First in Summer Knight.Then again in Ghost Story.And last in the microfiction JournalIf you want to do lasting mental damage to a child, Jim's treatment of young Harry is exactly how you would go about it. What I'm suggesting is that the destroyer in the microfiction is a Norse being called a berserker. this has nothing to do with if  Harry is good or evil. It speaks specifically to the question, why is the Council so afraid of Harry.

Which Microfiction was that from?  Was that from Eb's journal?