Author Topic: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry  (Read 39599 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2020, 12:22:31 PM »
That's Harry doing them a favour, not Harry earning eternal loyalty.

Is it?  Did Harry strike any kind of bargain when he demanded that Toot's people be freed from
bondage?  Toot knows, and he didn't try to take on the Skinwalker for pizza alone.  Yes, Toot likes
the pizza, but it isn't strictly mercenary..  Eb and LTW understand that, they witnessed Toot take on
the Skinwalker to protect Harry.  Toot says, "for you," not for pizza, but for Harry.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:58:39 PM by Mira »

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2020, 03:17:55 PM »
No matter how it was before, now Harry saved ALL the pizza. So I think it is safe to say that if they were not his vassals before they are now.

Of course he does not have their eternal loyalty, but if he continues as he has begun he will have their loyalty forever. In practice it is much the same.

Offline Paviel

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2020, 03:18:57 PM »
Not a wizard though.

Are we sure that the White Christ wasn't a wizard? What he did when he was crucified seems a lot like a Death Curse to me, and that's not counting the spells that he cast to heal the ill, purge demons, etc.

Is there a WOJ to the contrary?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 03:29:28 PM by Paviel »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2020, 03:36:32 PM »
Armies play for pay.  You may attract them to your banner for any number of reasons but you pay them to make them able to fight.  Toot Toot was made the leader and Harry curried favor from him by flattery and Pizza.  Harry's treatment of the faeries made them sympathetic and willing but they aren't bound. At least I don't think they are.

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2020, 04:06:27 PM »
But with this line of argument Macones trouble shooters are not really his either. I am pretty sure they won't keep working for him 8f he stops paying them.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2020, 04:16:25 PM »
In summer knight Mab called them retainers. They are his as long as he keeps his part of the bargain and we see that when he is unable to do so Mab, Lea and Molly do so for him. Because these obligations are important.

It is not the same but think comitatus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comitatus



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Offline Kindler

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2020, 04:23:58 PM »
@vincentric: The favor he called in was an army. So Eb literally raised a loyal army. They fought and died for him. As far as we know, they had no interest in Chichen Itza.
They showed up by the hundreds. Don't call it an army if you like, but many wouldn't call a bunch of pixies an army either.
Neither did the pixies. They showed up to protect pizza. Toot seemed a little nonplussed about Harry being in danger. The Kenku were just as loyal to Eb as the fairies are to Harry. It's all about debt and obligation. As soon as Harry owes them more than they owe him, the loyalty will be gone.
I mean, soldiers are paid (at least they have been for a couple thousand years. Read "Why the West Won" for a more complete explanation on the thesis that professional volunteer armies were the primary reason that Western Civilization survived and expanded rather than being eaten up by entities like Persia (who had armies primarily consisting of slaves and levies)).
Anyway, my point is mostly just that, historically speaking, armies are loyal to the ones who paid them—or, originally, the ones who ensured they were paid (via plunder). That was a big deal from the Marian Reforms in the Republican Roman period; he basically created the concept of a permanent, professional army that was paid in exchange for a term of service (they still got plunder, but they were paid salaries too). I think they had to serve for like 15-20 years or something like that, but if they survived, they were given retirement benefits. Also had professionally made, standardized equipment rather than "bring a sword if you have one."
The most immediate result of the Marian Reforms was that armies became loyal to their commanders. It basically set up the inevitable civil wars that caused the collapse of the Republic system. Julius Caesar (Marius's nephew by marriage, by the way) eventually took advantage of this, with Octavian really seizing the reins after his assassination.
Anywho, the point is that armies (good ones, anyway) render loyalty and service in exchange for payment. The Za Lord's Guard is Harry's standing "military" force. It even has a General (Major-General?) They expand the size of the force temporarily in exchange for additional pizza—if memory serves, Harry and Toot call it the Za Lord's Militia. The Guard is paid a regular salary, and has been receiving that salary since Storm Front. And Lea (or Mab?) made sure to continue paying them when Harry was dead. I think Molly covered it when he was stuck on Demonreach.
What Eb did in Changes is, I would argue, qualitatively different from what Harry did. It's closer to Marcone hiring the Einherjaren. They're Marcone's to command, but they're not his army. The Guard is most definitely Harry's, regardless of their motivation.
I think it's entirely possible (maybe even likely) that the Senior Council could call on forces similarly to Eb. But I don't think they have ones on tap. I mean, I'd expect they'd have done so in Battle Ground if they could have. But hell, the Merlin didn't even show up to fight personally (which I really would've liked to have seen).
On that note... what happens when Einrherjaren die in the mortal realm? Do they go back to Valhalla? Can they fight again? Do they have... resurrective immortality?

Offline Mira

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2020, 05:26:39 PM »
Quote
What Eb did in Changes is, I would argue, qualitatively different from what Harry did. It's closer to Marcone hiring the Einherjaren. They're Marcone's to command, but they're not his army. The Guard is most definitely Harry's, regardless of their motivation.

Which is a bit more to the point I was trying to make.  Yes, all armies are paid, the U.S. Army is paid, but their loyalties go deeper than a mere pay check, otherwise they are merely mercenaries. 

Yes, Major-General Toot and the Za'Guard are paid well in the form of pizza, but their loyalty to Harry goes a bit deeper.  Harry didn't insist on Toot's friends and relatives and their friends and relatives on being freed from the White Court light show as a favor to gain something in return.  He
did it because it was the right thing to do.  That is what Toot was saying when he said, "for you."   Toot and his pals supposedly have short term memories, but apparently not about everything, this is one of those things.
Quote
Harry's treatment of the faeries made them sympathetic and willing but they aren't bound. At least I don't think they are.
I don't believe they are either, yes, pizza is important, but it is also how Harry treats them, he has earned their loyalty.  This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2020, 05:32:49 PM »
Yes, Major-General Toot and the Za'Guard are paid well in the form of pizza, but their loyalty to Harry goes a bit deeper.  Harry didn't insist on Toot's friends and relatives and their friends and relatives on being freed from the White Court light show as a favor to gain something in return.  He
did it because it was the right thing to do.  That is what Toot was saying when he said, "for you."   Toot and his pals supposedly have short term memories, but apparently not about everything, this is one of those things.I don't believe they are either, yes, pizza is important, but it is also how Harry treats them, he has earned their loyalty.  This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground. 
It is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.
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Offline vincentric

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2020, 06:23:18 PM »
It is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.

Mab and the Redcap lack the emotional understanding, the White Council doesn't get the fae interactions of debt. Both are missing one half of the equation.

The Little folk aren't bound but a number of them are vassals and the volunteers come for the pizza and the debt they owe to Harry for the rescue.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2020, 07:53:58 PM »
What Eb did in Changes is, I would argue, qualitatively different from what Harry did.
True, and if the statement was that what Harry did that frightened the Senior Council was maintain a loyal army instead of raising one, I would agree that he did such a thing. I'm not sure if that is why the Senior Council is afraid of him. I think it's more everything he's done, including being born as he was. I also think it might be more that Harry got the "Little Foldk, Wyld Fae, [to] band[] together and organiz[e]," as Rashid put it, than that Harry raised or even maintained an army. Side Note:
(click to show/hide)

On that note... what happens when Einrherjaren die in the mortal realm? Do they go back to Valhalla? Can they fight again? Do they have... resurrective immortality?
I think they do go back to Valhalla to fight again, but I think they have to be resurrected by Odin again. There was a discussion here about whether their re-resurrections cost Odin anything. We now know their initial resurrections are done with soulfire. I think their re-resurrections probably involve the same thing. I don't know it, but there usually isn't a free lunch in the Dresden Files.

Harry didn't insist on Toot's friends and relatives and their friends and relatives on being freed from the White Court light show as a favor to gain something in return.  He
did it because it was the right thing to do. 
I don't think motivations matter much to the Little Folk. I also don't think they would understand "the right thing." Toot is pretty alien in his thinking.

it is also how Harry treats them
I do think how Harry treats them is important. Fairies don't take insults lightly. (Remember Thomas calling Cat Sith a freak?) I imagine most people near Harry's level insult the Little Folk almost reflexively if/when they deal with them. This would greatly lessen the debt owed. Harry works hard to not insult them. Which is honestly surprising given how he can't help but insult people/beings, both great and small.

This is what caught the attention of the Senior Council on that roof top in Battle Ground.
But they didn't do it out of loyalty to Harry. They did it to protect pizza.

The Little folk aren't bound but a number of them are vassals and the volunteers come for the pizza and the debt they owe to Harry for the rescue.
The only thing I'd change is that they are bound only to the extent that any of the fae are bound by obligations and debt.

Offline deadvoid

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2020, 07:51:12 AM »
I don't think motivations matter much to the Little Folk. I also don't think they would understand "the right thing." Toot is pretty alien in his thinking.
I do think how Harry treats them is important. Fairies don't take insults lightly. (Remember Thomas calling Cat Sith a freak?) I imagine most people near Harry's level insult the Little Folk almost reflexively if/when they deal with them. This would greatly lessen the debt owed. Harry works hard to not insult them. Which is honestly surprising given how he can't help but insult people/beings, both great and small.
But they didn't do it out of loyalty to Harry. They did it to protect pizza.
The only thing I'd change is that they are bound only to the extent that any of the fae are bound by obligations and debt.
I think for Toot toot (and later on, little folks soldiers), Harry is their king because he treated him/them nice while no one else does (except the ones close to him), and not only that, he's pretty much their only pizza dealer. Without him they wouldn't know where pizza came to be. To them not only he's the only drug dealer in town, he's the nicest dealer too, he listens to them, keeps his words, so especially for Toot toot he's the closest to a friend he ever has outside of his own species.

Offline Dina

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2020, 08:28:06 AM »
I agree
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2020, 08:54:50 AM »
It got a bit out of fashion later but originally being generous was important for being a king: https://academic-papers.blogspot.com/2009/02/beowulf-as-ideal-king.html
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Offline Mira

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Re: Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2020, 04:09:26 PM »
It is clearly shown that Mab and the redcap only have a limited understanding of the relationship between Harry and Toot and the white council probably understand it even less.

Yes, and it is more complicated, because yes, they work for pizza, yup, they fight to protect the pizza, but Toot took on a skinwalker to protect Harry.  Toot's reply to Harry, "for you," Jim's italics in Turn Coat, not mine, implies there is more to it than the doing of favors or payment of pizza, it strongly implies loyalty to him.