A thought About Butters

[Arjan]

The king stuff seems to have been a red herring in the end.

Or he made it a red herring because the idea was not as good as he first thought. 

There is a lot wrong with that idea if you believe in democracy and human rights and so on.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

But te claim matters. If they make enough people believe it it will have a power of its own. And maybe it is even true. In the Dresden verse.

But knights do not operate on claims. They all have king's blood but not kingly claims.
Remnants of king's spiritual power is good for knights in some way.

Or he made it a red herring because the idea was not as good as he first thought. 

There is a lot wrong with that idea if you believe in democracy and human rights and so on.

You can believe in democracy and human rights and still accept such power brings certain spiritual power with itself.
One can say entire Dresden Files premise is very anti-egalitarian with wizards being rare born superheroes for instance.

But I think problem is more with lack of clear rules - like what constitutes for a king in a first place. Was let's say Joseph Stalin a king?
If king is wicked and exploits people shall he leaves proper spiritual aura in his blood descendants and so on...

And also as Jim notices - descendants of kings are half of mankind these days.
I mean 10% of all Irishmen are descendants in direct male line (so count all the female lineages) of one man living about 1500 years ago presumed to be king Neill of Nine Hostages. Which makes all thing bit redundant.
You know I have less problem with this idea as a Christian - I mean Jesus itself was born on purpose in side depowered lineage of David dynasty on his human side, so it is within our symbolic rules. I have more problem that basically each time you can get intel about it. Dresden got like king lineage to all three original Knights, even though neither belongs to even side nobility at these point. I call bollocks on this research

[Bad Alias]

The king stuff seems to have been a red herring in the end.

It might be a setup for how the swords work the way they do.

[Arjan]

But knights do not operate on claims. They all have king's blood but not kingly claims.
Remnants of king's spiritual power is good for knights in some way.

You can believe in democracy and human rights and still accept such power brings certain spiritual power with itself.
One can say entire Dresden Files premise is very anti-egalitarian with wizards being rare born superheroes for instance.

But I think problem is more with lack of clear rules - like what constitutes for a king in a first place. Was let's say Joseph Stalin a king?
If king is wicked and exploits people shall he leaves proper spiritual aura in his blood descendants and so on...

And also as Jim notices - descendants of kings are half of mankind these days.
I mean 10% of all Irishmen are descendants in direct male line (so count all the female lineages) of one man living about 1500 years ago presumed to be king Neill of Nine Hostages. Which makes all thing bit redundant.
You know I have less problem with this idea as a Christian - I mean Jesus itself was born on purpose in side depowered lineage of David dynasty on his human side, so it is within our symbolic rules. I have more problem that basically each time you can get intel about it. Dresden got like king lineage to all three original Knights, even though neither belongs to even side nobility at these point. I call bollocks on this research

The point is these stories were invented with a purpose. Legitimizing the absolute rule of the king. Making rejecting that rule not just a crime against the state but one against god himself. They did not have the technology and the organization but this is the legitimation, the underpinning of totalitarian rule, of the absolute monarchy.

[morriswalters]

Jim read Le Morte d'Arthur and got hot and bothered about the mythology of the Round Table and the Sword.  He role plays in armor and asked his present wife to marry him in his full regalia.  He has an awful lot of hanging plot points and a diminishing amount of time to clear them up. This is one of them.

[Arjan]

While the whole book is about how a king should rule and the legitimation of kingship. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/159564753.pdf

[Feral Plum]

Ignoring if Butters is one of the Three Kings - appropriate around Christmas - Butters has Faith, There Sword of Faith, a 140+ IQ, And an intensive introduction to the theory of magic by Bob.

Waldo Butters is capable of being more powerful than any typical Knight of the Cross. Also, all the clued-in folks know Butter is a Good Man. So he has an immense amount of trust. When he bargains or testifies, he will be believed.  In a chess analogy, he is a pawn which has crossed the board. He is in a stronger position than Harry.  I smell a set up.

[Mira]

Ignoring if Butters is one of the Three Kings - appropriate around Christmas - Butters has Faith, There Sword of Faith, a 140+ IQ, And an intensive introduction to the theory of magic by Bob.

Waldo Butters is capable of being more powerful than any typical Knight of the Cross. Also, all the clued-in folks know Butter is a Good Man. So he has an immense amount of trust. When he bargains or testifies, he will be believed.  In a chess analogy, he is a pawn which has crossed the board. He is in a stronger position than Harry.  I smell a set up.

The greatest strength Butters has in my opinion, is an open mind.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The point is these stories were invented with a purpose. Legitimizing the absolute rule of the king. Making rejecting that rule not just a crime against the state but one against god himself. They did not have the technology and the organization but this is the legitimation, the underpinning of totalitarian rule, of the absolute monarchy.

Absolute monarchies which never reached level that could be called totalitarian maybe aside few short periods in Russian tzardom, evolved way way way later than most of dynasties, and kingdoms. And squabbling with kings was common thing for all medieval period - without rejecting system itself.

[forumghost]

The greatest strength Butters has in my opinion, is an open mind.

Butters greatest strength is having Jim love him too much and you know it.

[Mira]

Butters greatest strength is having Jim love him too much and you know it.

I've always loved Butters, the guy who faced the Titan is the same guy who hung in there and rapped out what Harry needed to keep Sue going in Dead Beat.

[BrainFireBob]

Both Aragorn and Denethor house were descendants of Luthien and elven princess Idril Celebrindal through Elros.

Yes house of stewards married more among non-Numenoreans, still Denethor was probably second after Aragorn in amount of old Numenorean power. He was able to fight for palantir in will-duel with Sauron and win, this is not something common mortal could do.

Nevertheless this pure race aspect is less important in terms of real royalty as most kings married foreign princesses anyway

Cite, please. The Stewards were not of the royal line.

[BrainFireBob]

If I remember also Denethor's line, though Numenorean, had become watered down over the centuries so their life spans were closer to normal humans.  Also it is repeated often in The Lord of the Rings that Aragorn is descended from the line of Luthien Tinuviel the elf princess who gave up her mortality for a mortal, Beren, "her line will never fail.."  So female descent was critical.

What?

Elros and Elrond are the descendents of Luthien. That's where the Numenorean kings came from.

Saying "the line of Luthien" is the same as saying "line of kings of Numenor"

[Arjan]

Cite, please. The Stewards were not of the royal line.

Not the direct line sure. No inheritance claim strong enough to claim the throne. But if you go for the everyone has some king somewhere in his ancestry reasoning then it is almost inevitable. The royal line has to intermarry somewhere and the higher nobility were the only real candidates.

[Mira]

What?

Elros and Elrond are the descendents of Luthien. That's where the Numenorean kings came from.

Saying "the line of Luthien" is the same as saying "line of kings of Numenor"

Yes, but the line of the Kings of Gondor became diluted over time by marriage to normal people.  So not so direct, and over time though they still lived a bit longer than ordinary humans, they were diminished.  Marriages among the men of the North that Aragorn came from, did not and though there were way fewer of them, they kept many of the characteristics of original men of Numenor. 
It gets complicated,  Tolkien mapped out extensive family trees, and when Legolas said "the line of Luthien would never fail," it was Aragorn's line he was talking about and not the Stewards of Gondor.