Nemesis [BG SPOILERS]

[Griffyn612]

It's possible real Nemesis was also tainted by Adversary once upon a time.

I like this, mostly because the usage of the word Nemesis changed at some point from 'harbinger of just retribution' to 'implacable enemy'. I can't find anything on the timing of the usage change, but it'd be interesting if it coincided with Nemesis the goddess being infected and changing her nature.

We've seen infection twist the purpose of those infected. Aurora goes from bound to balance, to striving for imbalance. Maeve was less drastic, keeping her personality but removing the lying restriction. If something similar was done to Nemesis the goddess, like say taking away the 'just' part of her retribution, then she could attack anyone or anything. Do that enough and you'll be known not for retribution, but as an enemy.

[Bad Alias]

It could be that Nemesis was the first detected infection by Beside, and the name stuck to Beside.

[The_Sibelis]

I think it boils down to cosmic law, or decree I guess. Whomever didn't want Gods meddling in mortal affairs anymore. Nemesis didn't like hubris, hubris in the DF has been described as free will, the overturning of Fate. So when it was decided that humans should have free reign, her continuing actions corrupted her. Like when the naagloshi choose to stay even though they were supposed to move on, instant corruption. Interestingly Nemesis's etruscan counterpart, Nortia, is known for her association with nails and 'the inevitable fate of humanity as decided yearly with the ceremony of the nail.. I'm still not so sure the nails aren't capable of falling or have not risen from what they used to represent with the crucifixion.
Also still banking on a connection between Lachesis and Nemesis, and mortal magic..
@bad alias, that's an interesting thought on it..

[Yuillegan]

nope, they're holding on by their most basic names and identity.. so basic they have to take little scraps of creation to make a body of their own.
Oh, and olympian bronze... Is part of reality. Though lumping them together is accurate, it's really all about will power. Reality is so foreign to them it has trouble interacting.

The implication I got was that the combination of reality (life) in the form of Olympian Bronze and Mordite (anti-life) into the alloy of Titanic Bronze is what made Ethniu so invulnerable both to magic and physical assault. I suspect that Olympian Bronze would only stop physical assault really.

But you are correct in that it's all really about will. Divine power (in large enough doses) combined with a strong enough will is enough to get through anything. Cleary the Olympians and other gods must have once held that power (Vadderung included) otherwise they would never have beaten their predecessors. But as the "new" gods faded I suppose their will and power went with it. Harry even expounds on this when discussing how to attack Ethniu with the Erlking and Vadderung etc.

As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders, I think it's more likely that the Outsiders are something else. Something more alien.

[TheCuriousFan]

The implication I got was that the combination of reality (life) in the form of Olympian Bronze and Mordite (anti-life) into the alloy of Titanic Bronze is what made Ethniu so invulnerable both to magic and physical assault. I suspect that Olympian Bronze would only stop physical assault really.

But you are correct in that it's all really about will. Divine power (in large enough doses) combined with a strong enough will is enough to get through anything. Cleary the Olympians and other gods must have once held that power (Vadderung included) otherwise they would never have beaten their predecessors. But as the "new" gods faded I suppose their will and power went with it. Harry even expounds on this when discussing how to attack Ethniu with the Erlking and Vadderung etc.

As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders, I think it's more likely that the Outsiders are something else. Something more alien.

Well yeah, they're non-dimensional things that consider the universe in general a constant disruption.

[The_Sibelis]

As for Nemesis...while I still think it is possible the old gods ended up as Outsiders,

I think it was the stone table, it destroys the thing but transfers it's power. So what happens to a being that's killed but not forgotten? Some sort of afterlife in a ghost like state, that would be the old ones. That Mab in particular shows aspects I'd associate with Nemesis is also a clue to me, and why I think Nemesis is such an issue for the fae in particular. She wants her identity back..

Marking this to remind me later, after sleep lol-starborn, changing identities, general shapes.

[TheCuriousFan]

I think it was the stone table, it destroys the thing but transfers it's power. So what happens to a being that's killed but not forgotten? Some sort of afterlife in a ghost like state, that would be the old ones. That Mab in particular shows aspects I'd associate with Nemesis is also a clue to me, and why I think Nemesis is such an issue for the fae in particular. She wants her identity back..

Marking this to remind me later, after sleep lol-starborn, changing identities, general shapes.

Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.

[The_Sibelis]

Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.

not necessarily, I piggy back on seracks grand unification theory all the time.(if a ducks a duck then calculate with a duck in mind lol)Mantles are piece meal parts of what used to be grace level beings, broken down into various masks and beings to be more palatable to reality. What Odin did to be vadderrung, as explained iirc in BG, is actually a prime example of that in action.
And then we have WOJ angels might only believe they're the original thousand of year old beings. At some point I think gods and angels were basically the same for all practical purposes. If angels created everything... And various pantheon created everything, then there's a connection somewhere in that. That I think is it. Between most(because the way archangels are described+the greater circle in FM, they are more imo) angels only having soul and sliding memory, I think alot of the older deity used to have position, and those positions had alot more leeway.

[K.L.O.E.]

not necessarily, I piggy back on seracks grand unification theory all the time.(if a ducks a duck then calculate with a duck in mind lol)Mantles are piece meal parts of what used to be grace level beings, broken down into various masks and beings to be more palatable to reality. What Odin did to be vadderrung, as explained iirc in BG, is actually a prime example of that in action.
And then we have WOJ angels might only believe they're the original thousand of year old beings. At some point I think gods and angels were basically the same for all practical purposes. If angels created everything... And various pantheon created everything, then there's a connection somewhere in that. That I think is it. Between most(because the way archangels are described+the greater circle in FM, they are more imo) angels only having soul and sliding memory, I think alot of the older deity used to have position, and those positions had alot more leeway.

Where would one find this "grand unification theory"? Sounds intriguing.

I'm assuming that you would class the Titans in there as well?

[The_Sibelis]

Where would one find this "grand unification theory"? Sounds intriguing.

I'm assuming that you would class the Titans in there as well?

it's in the spoilers reference section. Mmm, iirc their were something before the titans weren't there?

[K.L.O.E.]

it's in the spoilers reference section. Mmm, iirc their were something before the titans weren't there?

Thank you! I just read the theory and love it, totally jives with my Head canon.

I always forget that Gaia and Uranus are technically not titans, though they did have 12 titanic children.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

By Titans we mean wide array of beings not necessarily Greek ones.
And even Greeks let's remember basically mean - any deity that is not part of Olympian generation.
Some Zeus cousins were describes as Titans. Both Kronos and Uranos were called that.

I think in-verse difference between Titans and Gods came from level of influence they were allowed to use.
And it ended with replacing Gods with Faerie who can influence mortals even less.

And before Titans - who knows, we wander basically beyond times of proper mythologies.,

[Yuillegan]

Titan seems to mean (at least in Dresden universe  terms) proto-god.

These gods are primal elemental forces of the universe. They existed, according to WOJ, before Reality was made...in some form. So did the Angels. Consider the almost personal interaction that the various angels and beings have with Ethniu.

The new gods are Mab and the like. Mortals with mantles.

Sibelis is onto something, I think. I think the distinction between Gods and Angels is more about where they draw their power from, but in terms of origins they are all about the same. Considering the fact that they a existed before time (if you can really have such a thing), I would say that who is older isn't really relevant or even something that can be answered. Cause and effect didn't exist yet!

Just remember you've got to include an explanation for how that jacked them up enough that they have archangel tier minions.

My theory has always been that the "Walkers" and such beings are the equivalent of archangels and the Old Ones are TWG level. But the main difference is what they are. Destroyers versus a Creator. I suspect the Old Ones cannot create a universe or anything meaningful, and therefore are unable to truly combat TWG. They can only destroy things, but they never can solidify or capitalise on territory they reclaim via destruction. TWG by contrast is taking up all the real estate with Creation, and every win grants even more space and makes it harder for the Outsiders and Old Ones to get that space back.

But that's just a theory.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

These gods are primal elemental forces of the universe. They existed, according to WOJ, before Reality was made...in some form.

Well my call was that they are basically angels responsible of shaping and governing immanent reality, that went rogue, but not that rogue as Lucifer and his cronies. But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.

The new gods are Mab and the like. Mortals with mantles.

I think not. Like classic pagan gods seems to be last generation of Titan like beings - who were (?) not ascended mortal, at least not just it - Sigurn says Odin is being of Elemental Nature, and he precedes Fae. Fae are half-mortals in the end compared to old forces yes.

Sibelis is onto something, I think. I think the distinction between Gods and Angels is more about where they draw their power from, but in terms of origins they are all about the same. Considering the fact that they a existed before time (if you can really have such a thing), I would say that who is older isn't really relevant or even something that can be answered. Cause and effect didn't exist yet!

I think you can make cause and effect schemes that are not temporal, but more like ontological.

My theory has always been that the "Walkers" and such beings are the equivalent of archangels and the Old Ones are TWG level. But the main difference is what they are. Destroyers versus a Creator. I suspect the Old Ones cannot create a universe or anything meaningful, and therefore are unable to truly combat TWG. They can only destroy things, but they never can solidify or capitalise on territory they reclaim via destruction. TWG by contrast is taking up all the real estate with Creation, and every win grants even more space and makes it harder for the Outsiders and Old Ones to get that space back.

But that's just a theor

That's idea I like - forces of Uncreation. Still it's not really opposed to theory Walkers were created beings that turned to Uncreation due some ancient shit that happend. We will see.

[Bad Alias]

But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.

It was one of the interviews he did just after BG came out. I think that week.