"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?

[TrueMonk]

Regarding Carlos and secrets. Everyone has something they tell their close friends and not other people, something where it will to some degree make them vulnerable if they used it against them.
Before Lara revealed it it could have been that he is a virgin. Now it could be something that he is afraid of like when Harry was afraid of fire.

At least to my thinking a way to prove that you trust someone and want to be open with them is to tell them something about yourself and get a bit of advice on or just to let it out.

I realize it is story and there is no time for all these small interactions that may or may not appen between books. I am just saying that I cannot remember Carlos opening up to Harry either.

[Mira]

Regarding Carlos and secrets. Everyone has something they tell their close friends and not other people, something where it will to some degree make them vulnerable if they used it against them.
Before Lara revealed it it could have been that he is a virgin. Now it could be something that he is afraid of like when Harry was afraid of fire.

At least to my thinking a way to prove that you trust someone and want to be open with them is to tell them something about yourself and get a bit of advice on or just to let it out.

I realize it is story and there is no time for all these small interactions that may or may not appen between books. I am just saying that I cannot remember Carlos opening up to Harry either.

Exactly, and while the time to do it would have been before he showed up on the beach to ask Harry or to tell him he was on the security team, it was a calm time to open up.  After that all bets were off, but the lack of trust was already there, hence the tracking dot put on Harry by stealth.. So aside from the fiasco with Molly, what happened to Carlos that caused this 180 degree turn? Or have we all been fooled?  Carlos just played the friend so he could get close and spy on Harry from the beginning?

[TheCuriousFan]

Exactly, and while the time to do it would have been before he showed up on the beach to ask Harry or to tell him he was on the security team, it was a calm time to open up.  After that all bets were off, but the lack of trust was already there, hence the tracking dot put on Harry by stealth.. So aside from the fiasco with Molly, what happened to Carlos that caused this 180 degree turn? Or have we all been fooled?  Carlos just played the friend so he could get close and spy on Harry from the beginning?

No.

Priscellie: Kevin Nichols asks "is there a key difference between how air and water magic work in the Dresden Files?"

Jim: Yes. Water magic is, of the four major classical elements water magic is a very different one in the Dresden Files universe and it has a much more... what would typically be thought of as an eastern understanding of what is involved in water magic. Water magic is stuff that is involved in healing, the stuff that is involved in emotional connection, the stuff that is involved in empathy. It is your interaction with the natural physical world and being in harmony with that world. That's why the wizards who are water mages tend to be very very different from Dresden. Dresden is a very linear kind of guy, he is an a+b=c sort of fellow, the water mages in the Dresden Files universe though are are people like River Shoulders, people like Listens-To-Wind and because water magic acts so differently you see them as very different sorts of wizards and they sort of solve their problems very differently. They tend to be much more empathetic towards Dresden and towards other people who are misunderstood for example. That's why of all the wardens it's Carlos Ramirez who is the one who is close to Harry, he's the water mage, he's the one who can understand him and does have that empathy. He's the guy who is all about connections and about taking connections apart when he needs to. That's where the disintegration aspect of what he does- in water magic comes from is severing those connections now that he understands them. But yeah Ramirez, he is a much more spiritually and mentally alert guy than most of the wardens around, he's got a lot of depth to him. Also a lot of pain so he's a complex fellow.

[Mira]

No.

Thanks for that, but it still doesn't explain why Carlos is acting the way he is.  Because if Carlos still felt empathy for Harry, he wouldn't have pulled what he did on the beach.  Also he would totally understand Harry's lack of trust after he discovered the tracking dot.. He also understand that when he was asking Harry to "talk to him," it didn't sound like it came from an understanding friend trying to help.  So unless Jim has changed his mind about Carlos, someone got to him big time, there could very well be more than one Peabody type on the Council.

[Arjan]

Thanks for that, but it still doesn't explain why Carlos is acting the way he is.  Because if Carlos still felt empathy for Harry, he wouldn't have pulled what he did on the beach.  Also he would totally understand Harry's lack of trust after he discovered the tracking dot.. He also understand that when he was asking Harry to "talk to him," it didn't sound like it came from an understanding friend trying to help.  So unless Jim has changed his mind about Carlos, someone got to him big time, there could very well be more than one Peabody type on the Council.

He just took the path Butters started on but left. For him Harry is a monster and not the Harry he knew anymore. He needs an enormous shock or revelation to change his mind now. I do not think his marriage with Lara will help.

Having empathy is a good thing but it does not guarantee the right conclusions.

Also there is a better safe than sorry mentality in the white council and Harry is a danger.

[Dina]

Yes, I don't think Carlos is evil or that he is BC, but he can be a)nemfected (I hope not. I really don't like the "everyone is infected" trope). b)manipulated. I think at some point he will realize that b) is right and something will happen to make him a believer again. Remember, Butters began like that and now is like the stepping stone of the Dresden Church 

[Mira]

Yes, I don't think Carlos is evil or that he is BC, but he can be a)nemfected (I hope not. I really don't like the "everyone is infected" trope). b)manipulated. I think at some point he will realize that b) is right and something will happen to make him a believer again. Remember, Butters began like that and now is like the stepping stone of the Dresden Church 

We know why Butters was like that for a while.  He didn't know about Harry being mostly dead and then more or less isolated on the island for a year by Mab.  Meanwhile he found himself helpless while the Fomor kidnapped kids left right and center and no Harry to help.   So that pissed him off for starters, then since Harry was now Winter Knight he thought that Harry didn't give a damn anymore.  His only knowledge of Mab had come from Harry's point of view, and it wasn't flattering to Mab to say the least, so yeah, he thought Harry may have changed sides.

However that isn't the case with Carlos, however it isn't for nothing that Jim would write a whole short story about a sexual episode with the Winter Lady going very wrong.  I agree with you I don't want to find a Neminfected character under every other rock.. Nor a star born for that matter.

[Dina]

Mostly, it's the accumulation of "everybody is more than it seems" what bothers me. Too many characters are nemfected, a starborn, a secret denarian, wearing more than a mantle, under a thrall, a n ex-angel, and so on. When paranoia is THAT justified it became old fast. And losing one of those who were "just" what they seem to be, like Murph, hurts more when that is the case.

[Mira]

Mostly, it's the accumulation of "everybody is more than it seems" what bothers me. Too many characters are nemfected, a starborn, a secret denarian, wearing more than a mantle, under a thrall, a n ex-angel, and so on. When paranoia is THAT justified it became old fast. And losing one of those who were "just" what they seem to be, like Murph, hurts more when that is the case.

Yup, and when it really didn't work to turn her into something she wasn't, she was killed.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Because if Carlos still felt empathy for Harry, he wouldn't have pulled what he did on the beach.

This is not a question of empathy but of trust. Empathy is skill/ability of one's perception not necessarily moral guide.
And Carlos being more empathetic can also feel all Dresden inner darkness, even if 80% of them is Dresden's neurosis over them.

[Arjan]

This is not a question of empathy but of trust. Empathy is skill/ability of one's perception not necessarily moral guide.
And Carlos being more empathetic can also feel all Dresden inner darkness, even if 80% of them is Dresden's neurosis over them.

He might even feel sympathy for Harry’s inner struggle but feels that he is doomed to loose it or already lost it and they can’t take the risk anyway.

[Mira]

He might even feel sympathy for Harry’s inner struggle but feels that he is doomed to loose it or already lost it and they can’t take the risk anyway.

But why does a close friend lose that kind of faith?  I still doubt that Carlos came to those conclusions on his own.

[Arjan]

But why does a close friend lose that kind of faith?  I still doubt that Carlos came to those conclusions on his own.

Because the dangers are real and it only looks worse from a distance. This is the world were your friend can become a monster. Harry from summer knight would not trust Harry from Cold Days and butters did not either.

He can remember his friend with regret but that friend is not anymore, he lost his soul.

It is like he died and became a vampire.

[TheCuriousFan]

After all "don't trust WK Harry, he'll be a monster before too long" is also Harry's stance before he gets several memos from Uriel and Mother Summer that he can stay himself.

[Arjan]

After all "don't trust WK Harry, he'll be a monster before too long" is also Harry's stance before he gets several memos from Uriel and Mother Summer that he can stay himself.

That is why he committed suicide in the first place