"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?

[Bad Alias]

Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.

He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.

@Dina: There are somethings you don't do to your friends just to make yourself feel better. Harry could have approached the topic with Carlos like he did Murphy in the Walmart café in SK, giving Carlos the option of whether or not he wanted to take the blue pill or red pill.

But Harry did have both selfish and selfless reasons to leave Carlos in the dark. Telling Carlos too much puts Carlos in a awkward situation. Misplacing his trust in Carlos could have gotten Harry executed.

[Mira]

But Harry did have both selfish and selfless reasons to leave Carlos in the dark. Telling Carlos too much puts Carlos in a awkward situation. Misplacing his trust in Carlos could have gotten Harry executed.

Which he made clear after he found the tracking dot on his wrist. 

He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.

Yes, I know, I thought the question was why Harry didn't send him a card.  I think Harry did tell him a lot, pre Changes.  However it is "post" Changes that has Harry where he is now, and from the books at least I don't think they had much if any contact.

[Bad Alias]

Yes, I know, I thought the question was why Harry didn't send him a card.

Easy misunderstanding of what I was addressing because there's a lot of other points raised by others between our back and forth, so I've collected ours right here for ease of reference:

Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time.  Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.."  When he says, "talk to me.."  He is saying, "confess.."

I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.

Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.

He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.

Now to where we are:

Which he made clear after he found the tracking dot on his wrist. 

So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.

I think Harry did tell him a lot, pre Changes.

I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).

Knowing what we know of Harry, I would trust his intentions if not necessarily his judgment.

However it is "post" Changes that has Harry where he is now, and from the books at least I don't think they had much if any contact.

I agree that post deal with Queen of the evil faeries is probably too late to build that trust. Maybe not, but I wouldn't bet on it. For the sake of discussion of what Harry should have done, where he is now isn't all that relevant. Where he is now is thrown out of the Council and not friends with Carlos anymore. That's relevant to what he should do, not what he should have done.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, but I wanted Harry to tell Carlos that Thomas was his brother at the memorial service in BG. It basically explains all of his actions in regards to the White Court. The reason stated by Harry that he kept it a secret was that the WC and the WC would both try to use it against them if it was known. Harry only has ties to one of those WCs now. That reason is now gone.

[Mira]

So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.

Consider though,  at the beach, no FYI, no, "there are rumblings in the Senior Council, Harry, they suspect you of A, B, or C.. I know there is a lot you cannot tell me, but give me something I can live with." None of that, it was all very friendly and congenial, like I had said earlier, it was like Carlos was wearing a wire to entrap his friend or prove he was guilty of something.  It was a sneaky knife in the back, put there by a so called friend.   

I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).

Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself?  They are friends, yes, but how close are they?  I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa.  But as a friend, you accept that. 

Knowing what we know of Harry, I would trust his intentions if not necessarily his judgment.

And Carlos should also, but he didn't.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, but I wanted Harry to tell Carlos that Thomas was his brother at the memorial service in BG. It basically explains all of his actions in regards to the White Court. The reason stated by Harry that he kept it a secret was that the WC and the WC would both try to use it against them if it was known. Harry only has ties to one of those WCs now. That reason is now gone

You saw how that went down with Eb..  If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead.  I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos.  Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..

[Dina]

You saw how that went down with Eb..  If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead.  I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos.  Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..

Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.

[Mira]

Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.

That's what people saw, he didn't really have sex with Lara, but would Carlos even believe that?  I go back to thinking that his pride as a man was injured, not just his body in that sexual fiasco with Molly.  That would be enough to turn him against the Winter Court, and by extension lump Harry in with what he thinks goes on, with a little prodding from someone else.  I don't think Carlos understands the Winter Court very well, we know Harry doesn't.  One of the things I liked about Battle Ground was Harry getting flashes of insight into Mab, who she really is and why she acts the way she does. 

[Dina]

If I were Harry, I would need Ramirez to believe that Freydis illusion was true, so he does not go asking questions about what I was doing. I wouldn't want him to realize that I was helping Thomas.

[Mira]

If I were Harry, I would need Ramirez to believe that Freydis illusion was true, so he does not go asking questions about what I was doing. I wouldn't want him to realize that I was helping Thomas.

Neither is really a good option, is it?  If he told him he really was having sex with Lara and survived it. Carlos would believe he is under the influence of the White Court.  If he told him it was an illusion to distract so he could free his brother, Thomas, who is a White Court vampire, Carlos still would still believe he was under the influence of the White Court.  Harry's real problem is guilt by association, he even sort of admits that at the Accords meeting after the battle, that Carlos wasn't wrong, these people were monsters, but he wasn't one of them, or at least trying not to become one.  Even Eb appeared to be totally conflicted, on one hand he believes in his grandson, but on the other he is trying to get Harry to admit he is under the influence of the White Court so he can help him.  He was so conflicted, he lost it and would have killed Harry, actually he did, but was his double.

[Bad Alias]

Consider though,  at the beach, no FYI, no, "there are rumblings in the Senior Council, Harry, they suspect you of A, B, or C.. I know there is a lot you cannot tell me, but give me something I can live with." None of that, it was all very friendly and congenial, like I had said earlier, it was like Carlos was wearing a wire to entrap his friend or prove he was guilty of something.  It was a sneaky knife in the back, put there by a so called friend.

You're not arguing with the point I'm making. As of PT, I don't think we disagree with where Carlos is.

Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself?  They are friends, yes, but how close are they?  I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa.  But as a friend, you accept that.

I'm not doing anything that makes my friends think I could be betraying everything they stand for and maybe even them personally.

And Carlos should also, but he didn't.

Carlos doesn't know what we know, so I disagree. Given what I think Carlos knows, I wouldn't trust Harry either. We don't really have enough information to make a good guess at what Carlos knows.

You saw how that went down with Eb..  If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead.  I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos.  Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..

Eb is entirely different than Carlos win it comes to the White Court. So I disagree that Eb's reaction is any indication of what Carlos's would have been.

Like a lot of people here have said, I would have liked him to tell Carlos something at the memorial for Murphy et. al. Since Harry has no articulated reason for keeping that stuff about him mom and Thomas secret, I would have liked Harry to say that to Carlos. It would explain why he appeared so cozy with the White Court.

(and that I am engaged to her now)

Harry didn't know that at that point.

Harry's real problem is guilt by association, he even sort of admits that at the Accords meeting after the battle, that Carlos wasn't wrong, these people were monsters, but he wasn't one of them, or at least trying not to become one.

I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.

[Phobos]

I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.

That's close to my theory on Harry's ejection from the WC, and I think yours also has merit. My thought was that the Merlin realized the WC was compromised (Nemesis/Black Council?) and, due to Harry's integrity to the WC's core values, pushed to have Harry voted out so they would have someone look with inside knowledge of the organization look from the outside and hopefully expose/remedy the situation (ala Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy).
I think the Merlin went through his normal political machinations to make it happen so no-one would think otherwise. I'm curious to know which Senior Council members voted which way.

[morriswalters]

Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret  has been repeatably gone over in the books.  And the theme again gets raised in Battle Ground. He Who Walks Beside used the relationship to attack Harry through Justine. I'm assuming that Beside has the same or better ability as has Anduriel. I take this from Titania's warning to Harry in Cold Days. Telling Carlos represents an unacceptable level of risk. There is a movie interpretation of this type of ubiquitous surveillance, called The Conversation.

[Dina]

I like the idea of the Merlin using Harry as a spy. It makes more sense that what it seems to be happening.
Morriswalters, I agree about Thomas. It's a secret that he wants to keep.
Bad Alias, yes, Harry did not know about the engagement, but that is another reason not to tell Carlos Now about his relationship with Lara. And, as I said, Carlos has to believe that he was with Lara indeed. But, Harry being Harry, I wouldn't have been surprised if he told him about Murphy. It is good he didn't.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I like the idea of the Merlin using Harry as a spy. It makes more sense that what it seems to be happening.
Morriswalters, I agree about Thomas. It's a secret that he wants to keep.
Bad Alias, yes, Harry did not know about the engagement, but that is another reason not to tell Carlos Now about his relationship with Lara. And, as I said, Carlos has to believe that he was with Lara indeed. But, Harry being Harry, I wouldn't have been surprised if he told him about Murphy. It is good he didn't.

If the Merlin was kicking Harry out for any rational reason beyond not trusting him, I don't think it would be so Harry could act as a spy.  A spy who isn't reporting back to you isn't any good to you at all.  However, I could see the Merlin kicking Harry out of the White Council so he could act as a free agent.  Any reports that Harry makes to anyone in the White Council; besides Ebenezer, risks being intercepted by a White Council traitor.  Of course, this idea assumes the Merlin suspects there is another traitor within the Council.  Harry on his own cannot be given orders from the Council that send him in the wrong direction or simply waste his time from doing what is most needed. 

[Snark Knight]

Harry's reasons for keeping the relationship between Thomas and himself secret  has been repeatably gone over in the books.

Plus, if Carlos reports that officially, it could screw Ebenezar with other Council members who know Harry is his grandson.

[TheCuriousFan]

You saw how that went down with Eb..  If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead.  I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos.  Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..

It would have been an uncomfortable conversation but far less violent if Harry told Ebenezar before working him up into a rage. Telling Carlos about Thomas would be an improvement over Harry's canon approach of clamming up when asked about his sex life, working with Lara and seemingly sneaking off to have sex with her and then refusing to give answers again when asked about that.