Author Topic: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?  (Read 40552 times)

Offline Dina

  • Has Collapsed Into a Singularity of Posts (a.k.a, "The Dina")
  • ***
  • Posts: 105531
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2020, 08:41:08 PM »
Ooh you are right, I was confused. But Eb did tell him that before Thomas attacked anyone, so the point remains, why was the Council so wary of Harry even before Thomas did that. Also, what Ramirez did say on the beach is that people was impressed about Marcone maneouvering Nic and taking all what he had without breaking the accords. So apparently the Council did not know about Harry having the objects (unless they know better but Carlos is in the dark or lying).

In the same paragraph
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2020, 01:27:09 AM »
Ooh you are right, I was confused. But Eb did tell him that before Thomas attacked anyone, so the point remains, why was the Council so wary of Harry even before Thomas did that. Also, what Ramirez did say on the beach is that people was impressed about Marcone maneouvering Nic and taking all what he had without breaking the accords. So apparently the Council did not know about Harry having the objects (unless they know better but Carlos is in the dark or lying).

In the same paragraph

Yes, and the way Eb was flying off the handle over it it sounded like back in Summer Knight when Harry was hauled up in front of the Senior Council and they wanted to demote him to apprentice and worse.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2020, 02:42:33 AM »
Not known is how Martha Liberty voted, or if she voted, or Christos for that matter, did the battle change their minds about Harry one way or the other?

I thought Ramirez said the vote to put him under a suspended death sentence was unanimous.

The 'suspended' part either indicates the whole thing is a pretext to get leverage over McCoy, or was a concession Martha Liberty demanded in exchange for her vote. I think Harry scared her enough to lose her support, but she's on the fence now rather than fully committed to getting rid of him.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2020, 11:44:59 AM »
I thought Ramirez said the vote to put him under a suspended death sentence was unanimous.

The 'suspended' part either indicates the whole thing is a pretext to get leverage over McCoy, or was a concession Martha Liberty demanded in exchange for her vote. I think Harry scared her enough to lose her support, but she's on the fence now rather than fully committed to getting rid of him.

Well, you know what unanimous means to the Merlin means don't you?  No quorum, no problem, he holds all the proxies and he knows all of them so well, he knows how they think and doesn't even have to ask them just how they'd like him to cast their vote...  It's Proven Guilty all over again, Harry stood up to him and won the last time he tried to pull that.  However I believe it was Eb who warned later that the Merlin wouldn't forget..  Well, he got his revenge.

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2020, 01:57:57 PM »
Well, you know what unanimous means to the Merlin means don't you?  No quorum, no problem, he holds all the proxies and he knows all of them so well, he knows how they think and doesn't even have to ask them just how they'd like him to cast their vote...  It's Proven Guilty all over again, Harry stood up to him and won the last time he tried to pull that.  However I believe it was Eb who warned later that the Merlin wouldn't forget..  Well, he got his revenge.
He *thinks* he got his revenge, more like. The Gatekeeper did warn a Harry-Council showdown was coming, and if Harry builds the Paranet into an alliance while himself having the support of Winter and the Whites... the Council might just fall apart rather than confront him outright.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2020, 08:41:37 PM »
Well, you know what unanimous means to the Merlin means don't you?  No quorum, no problem, he holds all the proxies

Sure, but as far as we know, Martha wasn't injured. The only ones we know missed the vote for being in surgery were McCoy and LtW. The testimony that Harry killed turtlenecks in the battle had to come from Martha or Cristos. Even if it was Cristos' report, Martha presumably would have got back to Edinburgh at least as fast as he did, given his severe burns.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2020, 08:54:38 PM »
Sure, but as far as we know, Martha wasn't injured. The only ones we know missed the vote for being in surgery were McCoy and LtW. The testimony that Harry killed turtlenecks in the battle had to come from Martha or Cristos. Even if it was Cristos' report, Martha presumably would have got back to Edinburgh at least as fast as he did, given his severe burns.
But McCoy and LtW are usually the ones lobbying for Harry. The others supported Harry because they supported these two, they don't know Harry.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2020, 09:51:36 PM »
Sure, but as far as we know, Martha wasn't injured. The only ones we know missed the vote for being in surgery were McCoy and LtW. The testimony that Harry killed turtlenecks in the battle had to come from Martha or Cristos. Even if it was Cristos' report, Martha presumably would have got back to Edinburgh at least as fast as he did, given his severe burns.

 It could have, but how much did Martha witness?  As for Cristos I wouldn't be shocked if he was as guilty as Harry supposedly is. No, I believe the testimony came from Carlos.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2020, 02:43:42 PM »
It could have, but how much did Martha witness?  As for Cristos I wouldn't be shocked if he was as guilty as Harry supposedly is. No, I believe the testimony came from Carlos.

Secondhand, through her spirit scouts? Potentially, even probably, everything.

I think Carlos and the other wizards arrived in the party of reinforcements with Marcone, the Raiths, Ivy, and the svartalves. Harry burned out the nest of turtleneck gunners substantially before that, to clear the way for taking and destroying the bridge over the sunken roadway. So he wouldn't have been in a direct position to see it, and unlike Martha we don't know him to have a working relationship with scouts who can report remote events.

Though, I suppose he might have seen some burned turtleneck bodies and concluded they must have been Harry's work, since Mab was the only other caster on the park battlefield, and she would have used ice.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2020, 04:57:04 PM »
Secondhand, through her spirit scouts? Potentially, even probably, everything.

I think Carlos and the other wizards arrived in the party of reinforcements with Marcone, the Raiths, Ivy, and the svartalves. Harry burned out the nest of turtleneck gunners substantially before that, to clear the way for taking and destroying the bridge over the sunken roadway. So he wouldn't have been in a direct position to see it, and unlike Martha we don't know him to have a working relationship with scouts who can report remote events.

Though, I suppose he might have seen some burned turtleneck bodies and concluded they must have been Harry's work, since Mab was the only other caster on the park battlefield, and she would have used ice.

I think it is important to note, that with the exception of Martha and Listens to Wind, though I guess shape shifting into a Grizzly bear and then killing them could be killing by magic technically.  Also if Martha was directing remotely using magic she was also technically killing with magic.  I understand they is a very very lose interpretation of killing by magic, but everyone who took part in the battle did.  Also a lot of the Fomor were human at one time and altered, it is just a little less obvious with the Turtlenecks because the turtleneck sweater hides the gills, but they were human.  Even the kracken gave some indication it had been human a couple of thousand years ago, how else would Harry have been able to soul gaze it? That may have been one reason why they walked back a little of the verdict against Harry. Because any wizard who was in Chicago could also be condemned.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2020, 07:33:48 PM »
I've noticed that there is a moment when Harry has the doubt that Molly had become a monster and he decides to trust her. I wish Carlos did the same. I agree with many of you saying that Carlos had reasons to mistrust, and also about his PTSD but I don't think I ever forgive him for saying the line about the 60000 deaths. Also, for not saying as much as "sorry" about Murphy.

Yes, Carlos is in pain for the other wardens but Harry is too and he is grieving for Murphy. And Carlos just ignored it.

I don't know. Harry definitely could have done things much better with Ramirez, but his insistence in "talk to me" as if he (Ramirez) was not a loyal warden is annoying. He knows how Harry feels about the Council, that is not monster Harry. Is Harry, his friend. Monster Harry would probably be more polite about the WC  :)

And again, I don't understand the WC. While he was a warden, Mab was constrained for her respect to Harry's previous commitments. Now, he is free and Mab can use him much more.

Again encore: I need to know if Ramirez knows about Maggie.
I agree with all of this. It might be different if we had a couple of Ramirez PoV stories, but from what we know, Carlos doesn't have the sort of secrets Harry does that require him to be extremely careful with what he tells another wizard. And not just because it could get Harry in trouble. I wouldn't tell a friend a secret of mine that could get them in trouble if they kept it or they had some sort of ethical obligation to report without very good reason even if I knew they'd keep the secret.

Harry isn't running with more "shady" people than he was before, unless you call the Alphas shady, two Holy Knights and a retired Holy Knight, and a former cop shady.
He is in tighter with shady characters. He did a job with Nic and is Mab's vassal. But I do agree with your overall point that Harry's about as shady as he was when he met Carlos, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. He was the Council renegade who had just recently gotten out from under the Doom and brought a zombie t-rex to the fight the wardens were there for. A fight in which Harry saved the White Council, again.

Harry is a grey character and always has been. That's what Shiro said in his letter.

Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time.  Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.."  When he says, "talk to me.."  He is saying, "confess.."
I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.

He saw him, Justine and then Lara.
Harry's been the Wizard of Chicago for at least 14 years now. Everybody should expect Harry to investigate an attack on the building he lives in. It shouldn't be taken as a sign of guilt for an investigator to talk to shady people in the course of an investigation.

Eb told Dresden that making him the liaison was part of a setup to prevent him to shake some hands, speak with people and go stronger for the general vote.  Probably a Black Council setup. And Carlos told him that it has been his own idea.
This is the best argument I've seen so far for Carlos being an out and out villain instead of just a pawn or distrusting Harry.

And if the [White Council's] problem [with Harry] is [his relationship with] Mab ...
And that's the Councils fault. Harry ended up with Mab because he was owned by Lea. He ended up owned by Lea because of their persecution of his mother, their abandonment of/failure to protect him as a child, their lack of finding out (or handling if they knew) Dumorne was a bad egg at least a decade before Harry was born. Then they force Harry to work with Mab in SK and don't support Harry in his hour of need (Changes).

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2020, 09:49:14 PM »
Quote
I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.

Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.

Offline Dina

  • Has Collapsed Into a Singularity of Posts (a.k.a, "The Dina")
  • ***
  • Posts: 105531
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2020, 07:03:27 AM »
I agree, Bad Alias. And it is interesting what you say about not telling your friends things that could make them in trouble. That is typical Harry behaviour
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2020, 07:28:59 AM »
Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.
In the hospital. Did he even send a card? You would think so but for some reason I doubt it.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2020, 11:48:59 AM »
In the hospital. Did he even send a card? You would think so but for some reason I doubt it.

But while that was going on, wasn't Harry incommunicado on the island for a year?  If it is true
that this all happened early in Molly's term.