I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Bad Alias]

Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws.

It's about preventing black magic, not explaining it.

It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals.

It doesn't care about preventing egregious use of grey magic, as Margaret called it. Only black magic. Is the Council concerned with individual wizards exercising too much power? Sure. That's why the Council is structured the way it is. That's why it frowns on wizards becoming involved with mortal politics. (I'm not sure the extent of its frowning because we only see the frowning in the Paranet Papers).

There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.

We've been told by Morgan and the Merlin that warlocks are beyond rehabilitation. That they always violate the laws again. This isn't just a bad habit or even at the level of a drug addiction. There are plenty of people who break those. Harry's the only example of someone who hasn't gone warlock. There is an argument that he has, and his story isn't over yet. (All the maybe mortals he's killed).

[The_Sibelis]

Well, we know warlocks are replaced by something inhuman, via Woj. Something the wizard more or less birthed in their minds eye. Something that possibly did not exist before. Or something that existed in non existence like an outsider? If that is the case then Harry as Starborn would be uniquely placed to have the ability to break the warlock cycle in the way others cannot.

[Arjan]

It's about preventing black magic, not explaining it.

Natural laws are about describing how things work. Human laws are about preventing certain behaviors. They are different things.

It doesn't care about preventing egregious use of grey magic, as Margaret called it. Only black magic. Is the Council concerned with individual wizards exercising too much power? Sure. That's why the Council is structured the way it is. That's why it frowns on wizards becoming involved with mortal politics. (I'm not sure the extent of its frowning because we only see the frowning in the Paranet Papers).
We've been told by Morgan and the Merlin that warlocks are beyond rehabilitation. That they always violate the laws again. This isn't just a bad habit or even at the level of a drug addiction. There are plenty of people who break those. Harry's the only example of someone who hasn't gone warlock. There is an argument that he has, and his story isn't over yet. (All the maybe mortals he's killed).

That is their experience but they don’t consider free will. The knights of the cross have a totally different approach in this.

And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.

The white council’s approach of kill first ask questions later will push warlocks further on their path.

[Mira]

And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.

The white council’s approach of kill first ask questions later will push warlocks further on their path.

Yeah, if the Merlin is to be believe the problem is they do not have enough wizards willing to go under the Doom with a troubled apprentice.  Nor do they have enough wizards to spot the kids with talent before they get into trouble with it. The flip side of that is very few citizens believe in wizards or recognize talent with it awakens in their kids.  And even if they do on both counts today most wizards don't want to take the time to teach.. So lots of kids gone bad lose their heads.

[Bad Alias]

Natural laws are about describing how things work. Human laws are about preventing certain behaviors. They are different things.

Yes. But humans react to natural consequences by making laws banning the practice or practices that result in those natural consequences.

That is their experience but they don’t consider free will. The knights of the cross have a totally different approach in this.

True. We also know from Uriel that the exercise of free will is exceedingly rare.

And we don’t have that many examples of people trying to rehabilitate warlocks before they get too dangerous, only two, so I do not think we have conclusive evidence.

We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.

Yeah, if the Merlin is to be believe the problem is they do not have enough wizards willing to go under the Doom with a troubled apprentice.

I don't think that's the problem from the Merlin's perspective. He did say that the Council didn't have the spare resources to allow a regional commander to split his time between mentoring and the war.

[Arjan]

Yes. But humans react to natural consequences by making laws banning the practice or practices that result in those natural consequences.
True. We also know from Uriel that the exercise of free will is exceedingly rare.
We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.

The council has a strong better safe than sorry mentality so a few cases gone spectacularly wrong could have been enough. I doubt it was often tried, the risks are just too big.

But an individual can be crushed in such a system and doubtless some warlocks could have been saved.

Compare Ebenezer’s attitude towards everything non human. Doubtless based on many experienced but easily generalized because that is a very human attitude. Have a few bad experiences with a easily recognizable group and your attitude is fixed. Something to do with evolution and survival.

I don't think that's the problem from the Merlin's perspective. He did say that the Council didn't have the spare resources to allow a regional commander to split his time between mentoring and the war.

[Megan Marie]

When I read the scene my first impulse was He got the NAME of the enemy from the enemy's own lips! Since Harry's a starborn that's immune to the influence, maybe he'll be able to use a binding on "Nemesis". Mother Winter/Mother Summer had told him it was important to know the proper names of things, that was the first time we heard the enemy called Nemesis. IIRC

What's known:
A Walker is a powerful Outsider.
They are Outsider Knights.
There are almost certainly three. Mac has strongly implied there are three Walkers.
They are He Who Walks Behind, He Who Walks Before, and He Who Walks Beside.
Nemesis is singular. Nemesis is repeatedly referred to as "it," not they or them.
Names are important and guarded. We often know things not by their names, but by what they are called. For example, Harry has a fairy servant called Lacuna and another called Toot. We don't know either's Name. Hell, I'm called Bad Alias. That's certainly not my name.

So, HWWBeside is an Outsider Knight, which are known as Walkers, called Nemesis.

What I think on possession/infection by HWWBeside: They're the same thing. Subtle manipulation to out and out control are both forms of possession as I understand it from everything I've ever seen on possession.

@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.

[morriswalters]

Titania told him the name.

Titania didn’t turn to face me. Her voice was weary. “My heart tells me that all things end.” She paused. “But this thing I will tell a Winter Knight who believes in freedom: You must learn greater discretion. The power you have come to know and fear has a name. One should know the proper names of things.” She turned and walked toward me. My body told me to run like hell, but I told it to shut up, that my legs were shaking too hard anyway. Titania leaned up onto her toes and whispered, very close to my ear. “Nemesis,” she breathed. “Speak it carefully—or it may hear you.” I blinked. “It . . . it what?”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 315). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

One way you could take this is that Nemesis lives in someones doubt.  It's in the name, which is kinda cheesy, He Who Walks Beside.  In Cold Days during his discussion with Mother Summer Harry calls him a sapper. Trying to tunnel in to our reality.  Think of it as sapping the will of those he attaches to.  Lea says in Changes that she cannot think of him lest she become vulnerable again. This plays to that. Standing beside them whispering into their ear, when he finds them. But they may have to call them in some fashion that Jim has yet to reveal or be touched by some token.

It's interesting that the Whites refer to their "demon".  It is also interesting that Papa Raith seems not to exist spiritually.  In a sense like the Outsiders.  It makes one think that maybe the demons of the Whites are another form of the Outsiders, possibly scions of the original.  It would make Papa Raith the progenitor. 

[Bad Alias]

doubtless some warlocks could have been saved.

Depending on your definition of some, I have doubts.

[Mira]

Depending on your definition of some, I have doubts.

We don't, but it appears the Council does. I can't remember which book it was in, but I remember a discussion between Harry and another wizard about how the Council has tried to rehabilitate warlocks, and it never works. There was a line about how some appear to be on the path to recovery, but they always relapse eventually. I doubt they're making it all up.

That was Proven Guilty, and yes, depending on how far gone the young warlock is, they have been rehabilitated.  However it is increasingly difficult to get a wizard willing to risk his or her neck under the Doom to attempt it.  Of late, only Eb and Harry had been willing to do that that we know of.  And there is the real danger of failure, which can be very costly.

[Dina]

When I read the scene my first impulse was He got the NAME of the enemy from the enemy's own lips! Since Harry's a starborn that's immune to the influence, maybe he'll be able to use a binding on "Nemesis". Mother Winter/Mother Summer had told him it was important to know the proper names of things, that was the first time we heard the enemy called Nemesis. IIRC

Yes, I thought the same. I even thought he could use it to fuel a spell. I hope knowing its name by its own lips will help him in the future. Perhaps to summon it himself.

[Arjan]

Yes, I thought the same. I even thought he could use it to fuel a spell. I hope knowing its name by its own lips will help him in the future. Perhaps to summon it himself.

That would surely break a law somewhere 

[The_Sibelis]

That would surely break a law somewhere 

technically him asking was breaking the law. "Do not seek knowledge beyond the outer gates"

[Dina]

Well, it won't be the worst that Harry did 

[Arjan]

technically him asking was breaking the law. "Do not seek knowledge beyond the outer gates"

Which probably does not taint him because of star born. But it is still breaking the law.