I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[The_Sibelis]

Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them?  I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right?  I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older.  But I can't recall if something was said about that.

yea, Thomas I think it was talked about the hunger feeds on the mother, which is a disconnect from it manifesting at puberty.. maybe it needs to gather energy and go from larva to cocoon... And the first feeding is what basically breaks the cocoon to let a fully fledged hunger demon emerge?

[Telynn]

Was it said somewhere that most mortal women don't survive the birthing, or that it's hard for them?  I mean, the demon doesn't kick in until the Wamp kids hit puberty, right?  I'd imagine it's not trying to feed until they're older.  But I can't recall if something was said about that.

That is the impression given from the descriptions of 'coming of age' white vampires, from the youngest Raith (Inara or something?) and from the short story with River Shoulders son.

[Arjan]

yea, Thomas I think it was talked about the hunger feeds on the mother, which is a disconnect from it manifesting at puberty.. maybe it needs to gather energy and go from larva to cocoon... And the first feeding is what basically breaks the cocoon to let a fully fledged hunger demon emerge?

It is sort of logical. Where else does all the spiritual energy for growth come from? The demon has to grow too.

What can be dangerous is that the child is feeder nemesis contaminated spiritual energy. That can give as many complications as Jim wants.

[Dina]

Thomas said that the child's hunger fed from Justine (during all the pregnancy, I understood) and that only 50% of the mothers survived the actual birthright.

[Mira]

Thomas said that the child's hunger fed from Justine (during all the pregnancy, I understood) and that only 50% of the mothers survived the actual birthright.

Yup, and remember I took heat because I asked whether or not, as hard as it would be if they had considered aborting since the chances were very high that Justine wouldn't survive the pregnancy.

[Arjan]

Yup, and remember I took heat because I asked whether or not, as hard as it would be if they had considered aborting since the chances were very high that Justine wouldn't survive the pregnancy.

That was not the point. It was a logical thing for Thomas and Justine to consider.

It was just not something for Harry to bring up.

[forumghost]

That was not the point. It was a logical thing for Thomas and Justine to consider.

It was just not something for Harry to bring up.

Agreed, the man who decided "fuck the world, fuck the family I made here in Chicago, what really matters is my Blood Daughter." would not be the man to suggest that.

[Dina]

Probably not. As apparently, Susan did not either. But yes, Thomas and Justine should have (considered, I mean. Not necessarily deciding)

[Arjan]

Probably not. As apparently, Susan did not either. But yes, Thomas and Justine should have (considered, I mean. Not necessarily deciding)

But in the light of what happened in the light of Battle Ground at the end it is almost certain that Justine would have argued strongly against it.

[Dina]

Yes.

[Bad Alias]

In computers, ports can be bidirectional, inbound, outbound, or closed.  If there is a port that allows Beside to look in, another port for him to whisper in, and another for him to take remote control, then for Starborn, those ports might work differently than other mortals.

For Justine, those ports might be bidirectional. For Harry, they might be outbound only, meaning he can send his message/power out at Outsiders, but they can't send it in to him.  He's got a built-in firewall/antivirus that has his system protected.

I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.

Like, if the Walkers were that prescient, Harry wouldn't keep tripping them up.

While I agree that Justine was infected after BR, Harry's always tripping people up who seem plenty prescient. While he's very predictable to us, he seems to be a mystery to many of the powers that be.

[Griffyn612]

I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.

My take is that Harry is immune specifically to outsider influence and corruption.  He's clearly affected by it, as the third eye junkie could see the stain left by Behind. And Harry seemed aware of it, which could imply others like Eb saw it and told him, since he's never soulgazed himself.

I would consider it more like a scar or stain, but one that doesn't get worse over time. I'm not sure there's an exact correlation with the port analogy.

The closest I can think of is black magic puts a hole in a steel shield, and Outsider corruption is rust that slowly degrades the metal until it's weakened and compromised.  Being a Starborn, Harry's shield has some extra materials included (nickel and chromium) that make it rust-proof.

So maybe he still gets the dent or hole from black magic, and it's visible, but it's not as bad as what others would deal with.

[The_Sibelis]

He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic, but that doesn't mean he's immune to the direct effects of changing who he is and how he thinks. He's choosing to be that way, choosing to use his magic in that way. Just like everything else, you can't protect from yourself.
One thing I think we're overlooking though is black magic as a drug, something that weakens your willpower to resist possession. This is also possibly why Justine has been apparently completely overpowered, she was addicted to Thomas.
To use griff's analogy above, Harry gets a hole from it still, but outsiders can't move into that space because of his starborn protection. Perhaps why so many things and factions have sought to shape him of recruit him. His own actions still shape him, and they could still shape him into something they could use.

[Griffyn612]

He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic, but that doesn't mean he's immune to the direct effects of changing who he is and how he thinks. He's choosing to be that way, choosing to use his magic in that way. Just like everything else, you can't protect from yourself.
One thing I think we're overlooking though is black magic as a drug, something that weakens your willpower to resist possession. This is also possibly why Justine has been apparently completely overpowered, she was addicted to Thomas.
To use griff's analogy above, Harry gets a hole from it still, but outsiders can't move into that space because of his starborn protection. Perhaps why so many things and factions have sought to shape him of recruit him. His own actions still shape him, and they could still shape him into something they could use.

He's clearly susceptible to manipulation from Inside power.  He went a bit dark side after consuming dark power from the Nightmare. He's given in to the dark power of the Winter Knight mantle.  He started losing his temper under the shadow of a coin.  He was hypnotized be the allure of necromancer power from Evil Bob.

The only bad influence we've seen him easily resist is Outsider pressure.  So he's definitely vulnerable to the manipulation of others.

[The_Sibelis]

He's clearly susceptible to manipulation from Inside power.  He went a bit dark side after consuming dark power from the Nightmare. He's given in to the dark power of the Winter Knight mantle.  He started losing his temper under the shadow of a coin.  He was hypnotized be the allure of necromancer power from Evil Bob.

The only bad influence we've seen him easily resist is Outsider pressure.  So he's definitely vulnerable to the manipulation of others.

manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower.  I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...