I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Griffyn612]

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But until that moment on the boat, did Harry have any clue that Outsiders were Nemesis? Or why does everyone go all Lord Voldermort when it comes to naming the enemy? 

I can barely surf the net...  So now I am even more confused..

If you have a computer, or tablet, or smartphone, then it has a piece of hardware (these days usually a wireless component) that connects to the internet. That connection goes through a router or cell tower.  But on a more granular scale, the device has logical "ports" that are like doorways dedicated to specific types of communication. Video uses one port, audio uses another, email uses another, web pages use another, bluetooth uses another, and so on, and so on. 

One of those types of communication is called Remote Desktop Protocol. If it's enabled on your computer, and the right software is installed, then I can take control of your computer from wherever I am. I can look at your files, run programs on your computer, and even destroy your computer if I'm creative enough.

Other methods of connecting would allow me to remotely spy on what you're doing. Others would let me modify some files and what they do. 

To prevent me from doing that, your computer has the ability to close the ports/doors that shouldn't be in use.  You can also have a device on the network that you connect to (a Firewall) that can further restrict what can get in and out of the network.

In theory, Black Magic is an app on your device that if you choose to use, it opens ports.  If the Hacker named Beside has gotten inside the Network, and finds the ports open, then he can try to install more software through them that will give him more and more access to your computer.

Or, if you're unlucky, someone can plug a device (usb stick, memory card, etc) that has the Hacker software on it, and that software is installed locally and gives over immediate access to all those ports that were previously closed for your safety.

In the magical sense, Beside does the same thing, but with the spirit/mind/body.  Black magic opens a path into the mind, which he can see through or listen or whisper.  The more he whispers, the more it opens to him, until he can fully possess and control.

Or, using a vector like the Athame, the paths are opened without the slow infection and without consent.

[Dina]

Ok, that actually helps (I knew about ports and firewalls but I did not get your analogy). So, what would be the relevance of free will?

[Arjan]

I think an infection in this context is just that part of nemesis spiritual essence is contaminating the hosts essence just like a denarian shadow can be seen as an denarian infection.

It was part of Lasciel in Harry. Harry managed to give that part a seperate identity and it became Lash, he severed the connection with Lasciel.

The nemesis infective essence keeps being nemesis and can be used to channel the rest of nemesis. To influence the host or to be used as an entrance for total possession. So an infection is managed by the rest of nemesis and a possessed host can speak for the whole.

Like the other multi instance beings the individual instances become weaker if they are spread too thin and stronger if they get together. That gives a limit to the infection but not a hard number.

[Griffyn612]

Ok, that actually helps (I knew about ports and firewalls but I did not get your analogy). So, what would be the relevance of free will?

When you download an app to your smartphone or computer of your own free will, you're enabling it to do things to your device. Lots of people download apps like TikTok without knowing the things it does in the background of your device.  TikTok has code to access all sorts of things it doesn't need, which is why people are so suspicious of it.  And worse apps do all sorts of bad things.

The same goes (theoretically) in the Dresdenverse with magic. If you use magic, you're opening yourself up to power. If you use Black Magic, or specific types of Black Magic, then you're opening your spirit to that form of power.  And just like with computer, these openings can be bidirectional.

With both apps and magic, people can warn others until they're blue in the face, and developers/wizards can try to protect people with software/laws, but at the end of the day, the user/practitioner is the one that will decide, knowingly or otherwise.

[Bad Alias]

What's known:
A Walker is a powerful Outsider.
They are Outsider Knights.
There are almost certainly three. Mac has strongly implied there are three Walkers.
They are He Who Walks Behind, He Who Walks Before, and He Who Walks Beside.
Nemesis is singular. Nemesis is repeatedly referred to as "it," not they or them.
Names are important and guarded. We often know things not by their names, but by what they are called. For example, Harry has a fairy servant called Lacuna and another called Toot. We don't know either's Name. Hell, I'm called Bad Alias. That's certainly not my name.

So, HWWBeside is an Outsider Knight, which are known as Walkers, called Nemesis.

What I think on possession/infection by HWWBeside: They're the same thing. Subtle manipulation to out and out control are both forms of possession as I understand it from everything I've ever seen on possession.

@Griffyn612: How do you fit Harry's black magic corruption into your theory of black magic being an opening to infection? Was his corruption simply an opening that couldn't be used? I once thought that all black magic corruption could be nemfection, but I'm not sure that's possible anymore.

[Mira]

I think an infection in this context is just that part of nemesis spiritual essence is contaminating the hosts essence just like a denarian shadow can be seen as an denarian infection.

It was part of Lasciel in Harry. Harry managed to give that part a seperate identity and it became Lash, he severed the connection with Lasciel.

The nemesis infective essence keeps being nemesis and can be used to channel the rest of nemesis. To influence the host or to be used as an entrance for total possession. So an infection is managed by the rest of nemesis and a possessed host can speak for the whole.

Like the other multi instance beings the individual instances become weaker if they are spread too thin and stronger if they get together. That gives a limit to the infection but not a hard number.

That makes sense.  We don't know about Aurora, what kind of Summer Lady she was. But we do know about Maeve, her "mommy issues" and other frustration that left her vulnerable to infestation. Likewise Lea, and I wrote a thread about it a while back after rereading Grave Peril, that Lea seemed infected before she ever came in contact with the Knife.  She may not have been but there was an air of discontent about her and in fact a hunger for power that made her vulnerable.  I think it also interesting that none of the above were actually possessed by an Outsider, maybe because it would be too easy to detect.

[Arjan]

That makes sense.  We don't know about Aurora, what kind of Summer Lady she was. But we do know about Maeve, her "mommy issues" and other frustration that left her vulnerable to infestation. Likewise Lea, and I wrote a thread about it a while back after rereading Grave Peril, that Lea seemed infected before she ever came in contact with the Knife.  She may not have been but there was an air of discontent about her and in fact a hunger for power that made her vulnerable.  I think it also interesting that none of the above were actually possessed by an Outsider, maybe because it would be too easy to detect.

Mab stated clearly that it was the knife that infected Lea and the knife was given to her by the red court, a treacherous gift she called it herself confirming what Mab said. The knife had power and I think that power contained part of the power of nemesis.

I think the infection came when she used the power of the knife in grave peril.

[The_Sibelis]

I was thinking Nemesis has the choice between changing something and actively possessing it? Like say, she altered Sith, but since those alterations weren't enough in the face of Harry's confrontation it had to overwhelm Sith to stay active in him and not allow Harry to change him back? So anything she altered she COULD possess, but doesn't not have to actively be present at all times?
The outsiders vs walker difference is kinda odd... Maybe Walkers are not necessarily always outsiders? I mean, HWWBH has ritual spells that summon him for magical effects.. not just some spell, but an actual ritual, a rite. That's always seemed odd to me if he's supposed to be an outsider. So Nemesis is an outsider.. with the ability to walk the paths back to people to possess? Which is kinda different than a regular outsider... Idk for sure.
Alot of the stuff introduced in PT/BG has challenged our understanding of the DF metaphysics/lore, and those changes have not been fully fleshed out for our understanding..

[Mira]

The outsiders vs walker difference is kinda odd... Maybe Walkers are not necessarily always outsiders? I mean, HWWBH has ritual spells that summon him for magical effects.. not just some spell, but an actual ritual, a rite. That's always seemed odd to me if he's supposed to be an outsider. So Nemesis is an outsider.. with the ability to walk the paths back to people to possess? Which is kinda different than a regular outsider... Idk for sure.

Oh my, I didn't think of that! More confusion.. 

[Arjan]

Walkers are a subset of outsiders.

[morriswalters]

When you download an app to your smartphone or computer of your own free will, you're enabling it to do things to your device. Lots of people download apps like TikTok without knowing the things it does in the background of your device.  TikTok has code to access all sorts of things it doesn't need, which is why people are so suspicious of it.  And worse apps do all sorts of bad things.

The same goes (theoretically) in the Dresdenverse with magic. If you use magic, you're opening yourself up to power. If you use Black Magic, or specific types of Black Magic, then you're opening your spirit to that form of power.  And just like with computer, these openings can be bidirectional.

With both apps and magic, people can warn others until they're blue in the face, and developers/wizards can try to protect people with software/laws, but at the end of the day, the user/practitioner is the one that will decide, knowingly or otherwise.

As a tentative hypothesis this has merit.  But Justine isn't a magic user.  What's her path to infection?

[The_Sibelis]

Ok, trying to wiggle out some understanding gave me an idea..
1 the old ones used to be part of reality
2 The walkers were their knights, ergo a part of reality
3 knights as we know them exist for a specific purpose, they have free will.
4 so... Walkers still possess the ability to act independently and this is how they keep getting inside even without direct help. Someone does something that creates an opening for them, and they slide on in, even without them directly trying to reach beyond the outer gates.
I still think mirroring has something to do with it.. like they can influence those that mirror them because they create a beacon they can find from the other side..
So 'an outsider with the power of a walker' is just a complicated way of saying an outsider that can interfere with Fate itself? Which..  they do indeed do, changing fae and what not.

[Arjan]

As a tentative hypothesis this has merit.  But Justine isn't a magic user.  What's her path to infection?

Cat Sith wasn’t either. Just grab her and infect her. She won’t tell if the infection holds.

[The_Sibelis]

Cat Sith wasn’t either. Just grab her and infect her. She won’t tell if the infection holds.

he could move in and out of the NN and basically teleport where needed though? I think since the fae are all magic based they don't necessarily have to be a practitioner to USE magic. It's just part of who they are.
*I'm a long prescriber to the theory Justine is a changling, she was too emotional, emotion is a(THE) basic manifestation of magic, Harry mentioned this in one of the two new books but I cannot recall where.

[Arjan]

he could move in and out of the NN and basically teleport where needed though? I think since the fae are all magic based they don't necessarily have to be a practitioner to USE magic. It's just part of who they are.
*I'm a long prescriber to the theory Justine is a changling, she was too emotional, emotion is a(THE) basic manifestation of magic, Harry mentioned this in one of the two new books but I cannot recall where.

The point is there does not always have to be an invitation, free will or not. Sometimes someone is just grabbed and infected. I do not see why magic is needed either. Corpstaker could grab anyone and take over.

Sure an invitation would make it easier but that is all.