I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Mira]

  Maybe I am the only one saying W.T.F. about the boat scene between Justine/HWWBs and Harry..
Then again, maybe not.

On page 359 of Battle Ground, Harry calls out to whatever is possessing Justine.  It answers;

"It will do you no good once I've caved in your skull. Nemesis I am called."

Okay, get that, ever since Titania named of the Enemy to Harry, "Nemesis," we think we understand how it works.. But do we?  For more than a couple of years now we've had the impression that one is infested or infected, passed on like any other infection, we even call it "Nemfected."  There are lots of reasons for thinking this;

1] We think Aurora was Nemfected, perhaps by way of Elaine.
2] We know Lea was Nemfected, by way of the Knife she got from Cowl at Bianca's party.
3] Not sure how Cat Sith got Nemfected, but either by way of Lea and or the Knife
4] We know that Maeve was Nemfected, Mab confirmed it was the Knife..
5] Justine, Nemfected not sure how, several theories about when it may have happened.

Okay so far so good... Then you turn the page to 360 and Harry says he doesn't care what it is called, he demands it tell "him it's name."

She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, " I am He Who Walks Beside."  Hell's bells.  A Walker.

Harry then goes on to be a bit freaked, "an Outsider with the power of a Walker."

We know that Harry defeated HWWB back when he was sixteen.  An Outsider possessed Vittorio back in White Knight.  We know about another Walker, He Who Walks Before in Cold Days, we know about corner hounds.. Question, do the Outsiders I just mentioned strike you as something you can pick up from a knife or a toilet seat like any other infection?  Or are Outsiders the end product if the Nemesis infection goes on long enough and untreated in the victim?

To confuse things maybe a bit further or maybe it makes more sense, not sure.. But Harry tossing in there that he now understands who it is that he has been calling the Black Council or Circle all these years.  The enemy he knew was out there but he couldn't put his finger on...It's been Nemesis all along.

Okay, but I am still a bit confused... Is Nemesis the name of the Enemy as Titania said, with the Outsiders and Walkers, corner hounds etc., it's soldiers?  Or did I miss something?

[Phobos]

I think the 'Nemesis' title is in reference to all the forces of the Outside. Kind of like demons collectively referred to as 'Legion'. Harry compelled HWWBeside's name, like he did with HHWB4 (or gave it freely, not clear), and it gave it.
I believe the Walkers are a high class of Outsider, but are still outsiders, just a subdivision of the larger group.

#3) It was implied Cat Sith was ambushed by HWWB4, or possibly Maeve, at the garden/arboretum/etc.

In PT Eb, during the cornerhound fight, mentions that any contact with the Outside can potentially infect someone. One of the powers Starborn possess is immunity to that infection. Based on that dialogue, I think some things can be imbued with power from the Outside and have the potential to infect those who come into contact with it.

On another note, I think HWWBeside can possess anyone the is Nemfected, but can still pull strings in their heads when not directly controlling them.

[Avernite]

Well, my impression was simply that
Someone who is Nemfected = Someone possessed by He Who Walks Beside

What we all suspected already:
Nemfecter = Outsider => He Who Walks Beside = Outsider

And the final point:
I agree Walker is simply a category of Outsider.

So, what this tells us is that one Walker spends its time possessing people/things, and that Walker (who is an Outsider) is called HWWBesides. The other Walkers do other things.

[morriswalters]

Jim wants you confused. Lea and Maeve are both infected by Proven Guilty.  So two people can be hag ridden at the same time. But the question is by what?

[Dina]

It's not you, Mira, it is confusing.

[Mira]

Jim wants you confused. Lea and Maeve are both infected by Proven Guilty.  So two people can be hag ridden at the same time. But the question is by what?

Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides..  WTF??  Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!

[Telynn]

Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides..  WTF??  Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!

That's my big question.  Up until the Justine thing I thought of this being infected as just your thoughts being bent a certain way.  But Justine is straight up possessed.  For instance I don't think Maeve ever talked as the Outsider, she talked like her thinking was twisted, but she still thought of herself as Maeve.  Justine was talking as a different person.  It's confusing.

[forumghost]

Yeah, they call me Nemesis, my name is HeWhoWalksBesides..  WTF??  Not to mention Lea and Maeve both got infected because they handled a cootie ridden Knife, but seemingly not possessed by an Outsider!

I mean I'm not to sure about that. Remember Lea in Proven Guilty?

She gritted her teeth and said, "I cannot yet be trusted. It is not time. I would not be able to fulfill my promise to your mother, should you free me now. You must leave."

"Trusted?" I asked.

"No time," she said, voice strained again. "I cannot long keep it from taking hold of..." She shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her face to me a few seconds later, and the madness had returned to her eyes. "Wait," she rasped. "I have reconsidered. Free me."

I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a cautious step backward.

Lea's face twisted up with rage and she let out a howl that shook icicles from their positions. "Release me!"

Looking back, that sure seems like what happened with Cat Sith and Justine when HWWBS Assumed Direct Control™

[morriswalters]

It's actually worse.  In Cold Days you have , Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine now that I think about it.  Cat Sith is both influenced early and then taken over completely late. And Sharkface is all over the place.

I no longer trust that Jim actually knows how it works.

[Dina]

It's actually worse.  In Cold Days you have , Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine now that I think about it.  Cat Sith is both influenced early and then taken over completely late. And Sharkface is all over the place.

I no longer trust that Jim actually knows how it works.

That is a little too much, only because we don't know how it works...yet, it does not mean that he does not know.

Thing is, with Cat Sith, Maeve, etc it seemed that if you were nemfected it was like a sickness that slowly takes you until you are beyond help and you can't be back. But Justine has been infected for years and Harry thinks there is a chance to save her. I don't know, perhaps is because he thinks is a walker possessing her and if he vanquishes it, it will be completely gone and she will be free. But I don't know.

I was thinking something. Perhaps it would be easier to fight Nemesis if at least the walkers were defeated and for that it would be useful to have not only an starborn but more. Now, I don't think Drakul will be easy to convince ( ) but perhaps Harry could manage to force Listen to work with him. Of course, if Elaine is an starborn too that would be very convenient. I don't see how that can be possible, but apparently there is a WoJ about it. There may be other starborns around  but what I was thinking is that perhaps there is an starborn in Demonreach. And Harry could negotiate with him/her.

[Arjan]

Entities that are around for some time can gather a lot of names. When Harry summoned mother winter he used a few but not the most important ones.

[Griffyn612]

It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.

• The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
• Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
• Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
• HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
• The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
• HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
• HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
• The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
• The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
• This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.

[Mira]

[

Entities that are around for some time can gather a lot of names. When Harry summoned mother winter he used a few but not the most important ones.

But until that moment on the boat, did Harry have any clue that Outsiders were Nemesis? Or why does everyone go all Lord Voldermort when it comes to naming the enemy? 

It doesn't seem that complicated when you think in computer terms.

    The Outer Gates are a Firewall that block almost all traffic from the Outside.
    Free Will Summoning is a Firewall Port that's open to the Outside that allows traffic in.
    Black Magic Use is something that opens local Ports on the user, which Outsiders can use to access the system.
    HWWBeside is a Hacker who's gotten inside the firewall and can use Black Magic Ports to open more Ports on local systems, including Remote Access Protocol.
    The Athame is a USB drive with HWWBeside's malware that will open Ports without Black Magic Use initiating the intrusion.
    HWWBeside is likely hosted on a system inside the Network (Reality), which is his foothold.
    HWWBeside might be able to pass from host to host if the right ports are open.
    The question is if HWWBeside is limited to one system at a time, or if he can be on several.
    The possession of Lea shown in PG implies that HWWBeside was trapped inside Lea at the time, but managed to escape her system and moved to another.
    This could mean HWWBeside is limited to actively possessing only one host at a time, but it may be that he can be on several (my guess would be three) and he didn't like having one of his install instances/licenses tied up on a quarantined system.

I can barely surf the net...  So now I am even more confused..

[Arjan]

Also we have already seen that one entity can have multiple instances at the same time. As early.as blood rites and the ape things that guarded Mouse. The huntsman in battle ground and the corner hounds.

[Dina]

Perhaps it can manifest in 13 things?

Mira, I've got lost with Griff analogy too.