Mab and Lara

[Mira]

Mab is not expected to tell Harry all her motivations especially not when Anduriel is in earshot but her motives are hardly a secret. Harry had all the information to do what he had to do. The rest is operational security. Just like Harry could not tell all to everyone.

She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it.  You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.

[Arjan]

She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it.  You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.

Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.

[Mira]

Harry wanted her to know he knew but they came for Marcone. Marcone and Mab needed to know that. It also helped with protecting grey, binder and the rest and making Marcone accept the weregeld.

That too, but the fact remains, Mab lied.

[CrusherJen]

The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:

• To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
• To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
• To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords

Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.

Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal, he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.

Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.

[Arjan]

The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:

• To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
• To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
• To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords

Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third. At most it's a lie of omission, but she never actually voiced an untruth, so she never actively lied. And while I don't have the books handy, I'm fairly sure we're warned that while those of Fairy can't lie outright (without assistance), they are verbally tricksy and can fail to disclose all the relevant details unless compelled by a carefully-worded bargain. So Mab's omission isn't unusual, or against her Nature enough to (IMHO) be considered a lie.

She explained more about what she wanted in the elevator. We can assume Anduriel was listening though she might have shielded the conversation.

She did not lie to Harry but really should she have revealed all her plans? nobody can expect that.

Nicodemus was arrogant in his assumption that he'd planned out everything perfectly. If he'd thought to make a more complete bargain with Mab, closing any loopholes that could lead to Harry's betrayal,

There was no loophole that lead to Harry's betrayal. The big thing is that Harry could not betray Nicodemus because that would give problems with both Mab and the knights of the cross. That is why Harry did not punch first.

He also had to give Nicodemus the grail. If he had not lied he would have gotten what he wanted.

he might have succeeded. But Nicodemus got exactly what he asked for... up to the point where Nicodemus double-crossed Harry, breaking the deal and reaping the consequences.

There was one big loophole Nicodemus could not close. He was incapable of not betraying Harry. He had to do it and he had to do it when he thought Mab would see the least, in Hades realm.

Just like Small favor Nicodemus would have won if he had not betrayed Harry.

Since up to that point, Mab did hold up her end, I don't see a lie. Mab was just better at predicting behavior and planning for all eventual outcomes than Nic was.

Predicting Nicodemus betrayal was not that difficult. Harry and Vadderung did it as well. Setting up everything so Nicodemus could only succeed if he did not betray anyone was smart.

[vincentric]

That too, but the fact remains, Mab lied.

Mab didn't lie, she just didn't reveal her whole agenda same as Nic.

Nic bargained for the assistance of the Winter Knight in retrieving an object from Hades vault. He made no promises and asked for none about his plans afterwards because he wanted to be free to kill Harry, whoever Harry brought to watch his back and Anna Valmont in a place where Mab would not be able to intervene. Harry did his part in aiding Nic's plan. Without him, there is no way Anna signs on to Nic's crew and they don't get past the Gate of Ice later. Harry personally gives Nic the item he states was his objective for the job.

Then we get Nic's betrayal and the battles afterwards. Harry, Michael and Anna only survive because Harry made the smart plan to preemptively hire Grey and have him be their ace in the hole. They overcame Nic's hidden agenda, bringing the favor to an end and starting a free-for-all to end the caper. The fight at Michael's was just Nic being a vengeful bad guy.

But Harry(and hence Mab) did keep faith with Nic on his stated bargain. It's just that Nic being treacherous got them so much more.

Mab and Marcone(also Namshiel as we now know) got revenge on Nic for SF.

Mab and Hades got the weapons out of the vault and into capable hands for the future.

Uriel got the preliminary redemption of Nic's squires and a new Knight. He even got Michael more protection by alerting Molly to the holes in his security.

Harry got Bonea out of his head(his bargain with Mab to start the plot) which also let him leave  Demonreach and interact with the world again,  a fortune in diamonds and the mixed blessing of possessing some Christianity's most powerful holy relics.

By planning for Nic's treachery, Mab was able to accomplish more than balancing her books.  And she did it without breaking the letter of their agreed upon bargain.

[Arjan]

The whole affair is actually a good example why lying and betrayal does not always work better than speaking truth and keeping your bargains.

[Bad Alias]

She explained more about what she wanted in the elevator.

Wasn't that in the car? In the Ocean's Eleven type reveal chapter explaining "game over" and all that?

The way I see it, Mab didn't lie, so much as she told a partial truth. There were several goals to the mission:

• To repay a debt owed, balancing the loan of a Fallen Angel with the loan of a Winter Knight
• To assist Nicodemus in the retrieval of an object from Hades
• To gain revenge against Nicodemus after he openly violated Mab's Accords

Mab was honest about the first and second points, but withheld the third.

I thought she was pretty clear about the third. What she wasn't clear about was that she worked with Marcone to bait Nicodemus into the whole thing.

She certainly didn't lie about it. She never even implied that she didn't engineer the whole thing. If Mab was capable of being open and honest with Harry, he might have gotten on board without Mab having to have leveraged him at all. Not that letting Harry "I am a terrible liar" Dresden in on all those details would have necessarily been a good idea.

[morriswalters]

Why does this pop into my brain when I look at the thread title?

Mab and Lara sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.

I have reverted to my childhood.

I just realized that Jim uses this in Battle Ground. For Toot Toot and Lacuna.

[groinkick]

She still lied, and Harry and Molly called her and Marcone on it.  You are talking motives, but that doesn't change the facts.

Could you please show exactly how she lied?  What words did she say were not true?