Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[Dina]

I assume we will see that in future books, but yes, I wanted some answers about that in this book.

[BrainFireBob]

Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.

His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.

[Mira]

Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.

His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.

Oh?  Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt?  When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help?  The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner?  That is empathy.

[Telynn]

Oh?  Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt?  When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help?  The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner?  That is empathy.

But if he completely embraces the winter mantle, the empathy goes away.  He is fighting the mantle in order to stay the same Harry, not a monster with no empathy.

[Mira]

But if he completely embraces the winter mantle, the empathy goes away.  He is fighting the mantle in order to stay the same Harry, not a monster with no empathy.

 Yes, he says Carlos was right, the Accord members are monsters, but he isn't.  Carlos also doesn't tell him what happened with Molly, he just says of his condition, he ran into a monster.

Now it could be that Harry can fight off the Winter Mantle not just because he is star born, but because of Malcolm.  He inherited Malcolm's good heart, he will always feel empathy.

For the record, I don't believe that Molly is a monster either and if it can be avoided she will because of her father and mother.  Actually I think empathy goes away with humanity, Mab has lived so long that she has lost most of her humanity.

[Arjan]

And Titania, doe she have Empathy?

There are so many types of monsters and in a way Uriel is a monster too. He has empathy but most of the time with all his power he can do nothing. Duty triumps everything.

[BrainFireBob]

Oh?  Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt?  When he pinned the little bean pins on his volunteers saying if they ever needed him he'd help?  The pain he felt as his volunteers died under his banner?  That is empathy.

Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.

He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.

When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.

Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?

[Mira]

Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.

He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.

When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.

Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?

No need for you to be insulting.  He even felt sorry for Ethniu as he bound her to be shipped off.  Harry uses the mantle, he has learned to control it, he is beginning to get a handle on when it is the mantle talking, and does his best to stamp it back down.  The mantle isn't in control all of the time, Harry doesn't let it be in control.  Harry, the man, has empathy, that is what I am talking about.  The Winter Mantle doesn't, but it can be very useful because it doesn't.  But the Winter Mantle isn't Harry, and Harry isn't the Mantle.  At the end of the day Harry is a wizard, a strong willed man who is a vessel for the Winter Knight's mantle, that man has empathy.

[Dina]

Mira, he wasn't embracing the mantle then.

He specifically was refusing to embrace Winter with the banner. Do you just skip sentences? Mab compliments him on it.

When Harry gives the Mantle unfettered control, he changes.

Edit: Seriously, how could you even argue he was full Winter Mantle in control in any of those scenes?

That was uncalled for 

[morriswalters]

That ran straight into the gutter.

@Mira
The function of your mind is to maintain control.  Harry is a good guy and good guys never shit stomp their friends.  The type of guy that can wander so far over the hedge that he can do that is a danger to anyone around him. And in the moment empathy wasn't even in the room.  However he is a fictional character. So I assume Jim did it for a reason. The smell of Fire and Brimstone comes from the wound, you have to torture the language to read it otherwise.  But Brimstone in the books context is of the Fallen and Lucifer, not Winter. And never once in the scene does he call on Winter magic. Just his own magic.

[Snark Knight]

Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.

His analysis of Fix in Cold Days and analysis of Sanya and Butters in Battle Grounds are sharply parallel.

The point of the fight with Fix was that he was suppressing the way the mantle was pushing him to fight on instinct (charge & kill) by hiding behind a veil and disabling Fix with the least possible harm. Full sociopath was when he tried to fully use the mantle against Maeve.

[BrainFireBob]

No need for you to be insulting.  He even felt sorry for Ethniu as he bound her to be shipped off.  Harry uses the mantle, he has learned to control it, he is beginning to get a handle on when it is the mantle talking, and does his best to stamp it back down.  The mantle isn't in control all of the time, Harry doesn't let it be in control.  Harry, the man, has empathy, that is what I am talking about.  The Winter Mantle doesn't, but it can be very useful because it doesn't.  But the Winter Mantle isn't Harry, and Harry isn't the Mantle.  At the end of the day Harry is a wizard, a strong willed man who is a vessel for the Winter Knight's mantle, that man has empathy.

This was insulting:

Oh?  Did you not catch him standing up to the members of the Accords demanding that they help the people of Chicago who got hurt


Given I said, adding bold:

Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.

I'm sorry, but there's a nasty habit of taking only part of what's said.

Also, @Dina, see above:

That was uncalled for  

It's exactly what was done

[The_Sibelis]

Play nice people... It's all fun and games until someone looses and eye 😉

[Mira]

Harry generally feels empathy, but not in Winter Mantle sociopath mode.

No, but an Ak-47 doesn't feel empathy either, nor is it a sociopath, it is a weapon of great power.  The mantle doesn't think, it has no emotions, it cannot be a sociopath, it is a huge bundle of adrenaline.  The problem is many of the guys that have held it were sociopaths with weak wills, like Slate.  Harry is neither and learning to control it and remain him has been difficult.  Harry lost it when Rudolph kill Murphy, the mantle had nothing to do with that, that was pure emotion.. But it wasn't in any way the act of a sociopath, a sociopath by definition is;

noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths

    a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

The one thing Harry doesn't lack is conscience, once he came back to himself he felt remorse.   

Yes, it was his imagination what he thought he smelled because he had almost did an evil deed, but he didn't, he was stopped.  Do you think the odor of sulfur and brimstone was coming off of Michael's sweat when he was trying to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat?  He was doing an evil deed, but Harry stopped him before it was done.

[Dina]

Play nice people... It's all fun and games until someone looses and eye 😉

You are right. (Also, did you check your inbox lately?)

Mira, even when the mantle is not a person, I see it different than a weapon, unless you are talking of the One Ring. Because it is a thing that corrupts and tries to weaken the will of the one using it, until it conforms to some "ideal". I am sure that, for the mantle, an ideal WK would be vicious, killing people, raping people, chasing and punishing. The very stereotypical mucho macho probably. But that wouldn't be so useful to Winter as it is someone like Harry controlling the mantle. That is why Mab chose him (at least one of the reasons). Because she knew he won't become controlled by the mantle but the other way around. And she wants that, not for altruistic reasons but because it is in Winter's best interests. And perhaps in humanity's too.