Author Topic: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler  (Read 5546 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4254
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« on: October 09, 2020, 02:18:53 AM »
"I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place," Mab said. "But one does not place all one's hopes with any one place, person, or plan. Like chess, the superior player does not plan to accomplish a single gambit, a particular entrapment. She establishes her pieces so that regardless of what her enemy does, she has forces ready to respond, to adapt, and to destroy. Molly was made ready as a contingency."

Near the end of BG Harry meets the third walker, He Who Walks Besides.  The Walker also refers to itself as Nemesis.  I don't want to get into whether HWWBs is Nemesis or the three Walkers are all aspects of Nemesis.  That's something for future books to sort out.  No, I'm interested in who is going to confront Nemesis.  From our perspective, because Harry is Starborn and has the ability to wield power over the Outsiders; according to Lash, and may be immune to being taken over by Outsiders; if Ebenezer is correct, he seems like Mab's primary choice to deal with Nemesis. 

We don't know what the White Council wanted Starborn Harry for.  Maybe it's the Outsiders, but it could be something else entirely.  It's possible there are multiple roles a Starborn mortal can fill.  However, the Big Boss of the entire series appears to be Nemesis.  But all you have to do is read the statement I highlighted above to know that Mab has a contingency plan, or maybe it's contingency plans, for dealing with Nemesis and the Outsider threat. 

I should also add that Harry is the primary Outsider solution, from our prospective.  It's possible that Harry is Mab's contingency plan, but that doesn't matter.  For ease of understanding, I'm going to stick with with the idea that Harry is primary.  So, who is the backup or who is Mab's contingency plan?

The only other Starborn characters we know who are walking around are Elaine, Listen and Drakul.  Somehow, I'm not seeing Drakul as the savior of the human race.  In fact, in his final conversation with Lash, Harry makes an intuitive guess that there's relationship between the Outsiders and the Black Court.  Then again, maybe the Outsiders taking over our reality would destroy Drakul's food supply so the creature might have a reason to oppose the Outsiders.  Somehow I doubt that.  If Listen is still alive, which seems doubtful after Harry buried him under a wall of dirt, he might be a candidate, but I'm just not feeling it.  If Elaine had appeared in more than two books, I think she could have been an alternative to Harry, but she seems like a character who has been pushed so far to the sidelines as to be irrelevant.  I'm sure that Jim will drag her back into the limelight at some point, and we still have to find out if she is Kumori and, or she was responsible for infecting Aurora, but as the being who will defeat Nemesis; well, there's nothing there to indicate she has the ability to do so.

Many of us suspect Nicodemus Archleone has his own plan to defeat the Outsiders.  (I don't think it's been explicitly stated that that is the case.)  In a scene on top of Marcone's castle discussing who can defeat Ethniu, Mab opines that Nicodemus could cut through her defenses.  Mab clearly doesn't have a problem using monsters to get the job done.  Of course, Nic's plan is likely to be some kind of scorched earth strategy, but Jim has stated that Mab will sacrifice everything, including herself, to accomplish her goals.  If Nicodemus plan looks doable to Mab, she is that rare being who can put expected results ahead of personal issues, and she could always defer killing Nicodemus to a later time.
                                                   
Finally, a new contender is John Marcone.  Mab might see Marcone / Namshiel as a viable choice.  If Nicodemus has a plan to defeat Nemesis, Thorned Namshiel might already be all in on that plan.  Whether Marcone will agree with such a plan is questionable.  Marcone might balk at burning down his own empire to stop Nemesis.  However, we don't how long Marcone can remain himself.  Like Harry, Marcone is a very willful mortal, but breaking down mortals is what Namshiel and the other Denarians do and have done for millennia.

Whether Harry is Mab's primary Nemesis solution or he is her contingency plan, who do you think is Mab's other choice or choices?                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                   
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 02:37:00 AM »
Slightly off topic but you made me realize fix was not in BG 🤔

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 02:41:59 AM »
Rashid is the first line of defense against Nemesis. Then Harry. Mab herself is a line of defense. She treated Lea. (I'm not sure if she cured her because of that comment about how she can't think about it too much).

Elaine might be a star born. We don't know. I'd expect her to be more connected to some supernatural power if she is. If she is Kumori, then she is connected to a supernatural power, and that power is the Black Council, which may or may not be entirely or partially controlled by Nemesis.

Slightly off topic but you made me realize fix was not in BG 🤔
I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.

Offline BrainFireBob

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 02:42:13 AM »
Rides in with Sarissa at the end

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 02:45:32 AM »
I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.
ah, yea. He might have, but I don't remember him taking any shots during the battle himself.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4254
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 04:49:59 AM »
Rashid is the first line of defense against Nemesis. Then Harry. Mab herself is a line of defense. She treated Lea. (I'm not sure if she cured her because of that comment about how she can't think about it too much).

Elaine might be a star born. We don't know. I'd expect her to be more connected to some supernatural power if she is. If she is Kumori, then she is connected to a supernatural power, and that power is the Black Council, which may or may not be entirely or partially controlled by Nemesis.
I think he was mentioned when the Summer Lady showed up. He definitely wasn't featured.

If Rashid is defense; which he is, Harry is offense.  Same for Mab.  My guess is that Harry is the one who can permanently banish the Outsiders or at least do so until the next Starborn is born and comes into their full power, about 666 years from now.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 06:03:20 AM »
If Rashid is defense; which he is, Harry is offense.  Same for Mab.  My guess is that Harry is the one who can permanently banish the Outsiders or at least do so until the next Starborn is born and comes into their full power, about 666 years from now.

Will it?  I am beginning to wonder, in Battle Ground they seem to be popping up all over the place.
We know Harry is one.
Drakul is one.
Listen talked like he was one.

Odd don't ya thing that two of the three are monsters?  Interesting that they are born every 666 years, that is the Sign of the Beast.. 
In the light of that, Margaret choosing Malcolm of the pure and good heart to be Harry's father has even greater significance.



Offline TrueMonk

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 09:46:02 PM »
If there is allready two options in Rashid and Harry, maybe Elaine is a good third choice. She is distances from Mab because her primary connection is to summer and she is distanced from the White Council because she is not on it. The backup has to be hidden like Molly was. That they killed Harry could be a good beginning of the motivaiton for Elaine. Maybe Mab has her through a summer favour?

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 10:04:52 PM »
If there is allready two options in Rashid and Harry, maybe Elaine is a good third choice. She is distances from Mab because her primary connection is to summer and she is distanced from the White Council because she is not on it. The backup has to be hidden like Molly was. That they killed Harry could be a good beginning of the motivaiton for Elaine. Maybe Mab has her through a summer favour?
If anyone has her it is Sarissa.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3933
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 11:52:48 PM »
Finally, a new contender is John Marcone.  Mab might see Marcone / Namshiel as a viable choice.  If Nicodemus has a plan to defeat Nemesis, Thorned Namshiel might already be all in on that plan.  Whether Marcone will agree with such a plan is questionable.  Marcone might balk at burning down his own empire to stop Nemesis.  However, we don't how long Marcone can remain himself.  Like Harry, Marcone is a very willful mortal, but breaking down mortals is what Namshiel and the other Denarians do and have done for millennia.

I'm not sure where Namshiel stands vis a vis the rest of the Fallen. He didn't dissuade Marcone from the plot to bring Nic down, so there's evidently no particular loyalty there. On the other hand, Nic referred to Namshiel losing his last host as a loss of Tessa's sorcery tutor. That may indicate their partnership was somewhat recent, since if it had been a matter of centuries, she probably would have learned all she could. He might be somewhat similar to Lasciel, making temporary alliances but ultimately playing his own agenda.

As to where he stands vis a vis Mab, if she thinks he's Nemfected because of the Arctis Tor business, I doubt she's going to be banking on him. But we still don't know whether Nemesis infecting a Denarian would infect the host, the Fallen, or both.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 06:38:27 PM »
Right every 666 years a Starborn is created.Suppose at that point there is a single universe in which the Starborn are created, but that universe branches based on decisions that Starborn makes until the BAT arrives, at that point only one of the multitudes of branched universes has the possibility of producing a Starborn capable of defeating the Outsiders in that ‘Endgame’ all other branched universes are destroyed by the White God to prevent the Outsiders getting in, leaving a single universe which will start branching again when the next Starborn is created.

All other universes (such as this) exist but are not directly vulnerable to the Outsiders, but if the Outsiders get into The Engame universe and win, then all of these other universes are vulnerable, putting all of reality at risk.

This would require that the Dresdenverse is a local group of the multiverse which ranges from one to perhaps hundreds of universes depending at which point of the cycle it is at. This is complicated where there is more than one Starborn as it would massively increase the number of the local Dresdenverse universes in which one cannot be sure is the Engame universe.


Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 07:56:27 PM »
Every 666 years the star born cycle happens. I need to go back over that Convo(only have audible 😒) but one thing I see ppl getting consistently wrong is thinking only one Starborn at a time... Listens is mortal, he can't be older than most wizards alive today. He was born in the same cycle as Harry. thinking of starborn as a singular occurrence is wrong. Even if the light only shines for a couple hours on a singular day that's not going to be just one child.

Offline toodeep

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2020, 06:16:15 PM »
It is clear from what Jim has said that there can be multiple starborn, and that to be starborn you need two things:
1.  To be born at roughly the right time.  Apparently it wasn't an exact minute kinda thing, and Harry and Elaine were both contenders, so it may even range over months.
2.  They need to be "activated" in some way.  Not everyone who was born on Harry's birthday is a Starborn, but I suspect Harry has been since he was "activated" by HWWB.

It is clear from what bigfoot said that this is a normal process - something big is coming, and it is normal and important to have starborn when it does.  The older wizards are hanging on to have some say in whatever the big thing is that's coming.

It's clear from what Listen's said to Ethnui that he is a Starborn, and that makes him valuable.  It seems to me that every faction that wants to be a player in whatever is coming (some like the Svartelves may just want to keep their heads down) needs to have a Starborn.

Potential/known Starborn:
1.  Harry
2.  Listen (deceased?)
3.  Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3.  Elaine (per WOJ)
4.  Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5.  English guy in Demonreach?

And that leads me to a big question, who is the White Council's Starborn?  They crap all over Harry all the time and just threw him out.  There is no way they would be throwing him out if he was their plan.  So who are they grooming to be their Starborn contender?  Harry is really the only person of his generation we see, everyone else is always markedly older or younger, and since all starborn should be the same age that means we haven't seen a contender yet.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4254
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2024, 07:35:10 PM »
It is clear from what Jim has said that there can be multiple starborn, and that to be starborn you need two things:
1.  To be born at roughly the right time.  Apparently it wasn't an exact minute kinda thing, and Harry and Elaine were both contenders, so it may even range over months.
2.  They need to be "activated" in some way.  Not everyone who was born on Harry's birthday is a Starborn, but I suspect Harry has been since he was "activated" by HWWB.

It is clear from what bigfoot said that this is a normal process - something big is coming, and it is normal and important to have starborn when it does.  The older wizards are hanging on to have some say in whatever the big thing is that's coming.

It's clear from what Listen's said to Ethnui that he is a Starborn, and that makes him valuable.  It seems to me that every faction that wants to be a player in whatever is coming (some like the Svartelves may just want to keep their heads down) needs to have a Starborn.

Potential/known Starborn:
1.  Harry
2.  Listen (deceased?)
3.  Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3.  Elaine (per WOJ)
4.  Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5.  English guy in Demonreach?


And that leads me to a big question, who is the White Council's Starborn?  They crap all over Harry all the time and just threw him out.  There is no way they would be throwing him out if he was their plan.  So who are they grooming to be their Starborn contender?  Harry is really the only person of his generation we see, everyone else is always markedly older or younger, and since all starborn should be the same age that means we haven't seen a contender yet.

You know, there is one other person we can add to the list of possible starborn individuals.  Nicodemus could be starborn from a previous cycle.  3 x 666 years = 1998 years.  That would put Nicodemus' birth roughly a couple of decades before the birth of Jesus, about 24 BC

Here is the math.  According to the official Dresden Files timeline, Harry was born roughly 26 years before the events in Storm Front.  If Storm Front takes place in 2000, that puts Harry's birth in 1974.  A year or two either way doesn't make a significant difference in the overall calculation.

If Nicodemus is starborn; born in or very near 24 BC, he would have been in his mid-fifties around the time of The Crucifixion.  Not an impossible age to reach back then, but for most people it would have been old age or very close to what would have been considered old age back then. 

Someone had to gather up the thirty pieces of silver to place the fallen in.  Someone had to take the noose that Judas used to hang himself from the body.  Why not Nicodemus?  This would mean that Nicodemus was the very first Denarian as well as being Starborn.  There is no direct evidence in the Dresden Files novels for this to be the case, but it feels right.

I don't think Tessa can be Starborn.  Nicodemus takes her; probably buys her, from a brothel in Greece (Thessalonica) when she is still a teenager.  If Tessa was born in 24 BC or a year or two in either direction, there weren't any Denarians when Nicodemus found her and Nic wouldn't have been one at the time. 

It is still possible but it's messy.  A wealthy person in the Roman Empire who purchased a sex slave wouldn't marry her.  It might happen in a Hollywood movie, but not in real life.  I think they marry after they become Denarians, because they both would have been outside of normal society then, but that is just my guess.  In any case, Tessa lacks the gravitas to feel like a character who might be starborn.

I started this thread four years ago asking the question, "Who is Mab's backup plan?"  Her backup if Harry can't stop Nemesis or Harry dies before the final confrontation.  The answer is obvious now.  It must be Nicodemus. 

Mab got her revenge against Nicodemus by manipulating him to kill his own daughter; the only person Nic could trust to have his back.  Mab isn't above turning around and using Nicodemus if she deems it necessary.





     

« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 10:16:39 PM by KurtinStGeorge »
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2024, 11:54:56 AM »
Quote
Potential/known Starborn:
1.  Harry
2.  Listen (deceased?)
3.  Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)
3.  Elaine (per WOJ)
4.  Gatekeep (would make sense for position, is he old enough to be Starborn from 666 years ago?)
5.  English guy in Demonreach?

All important, but one has to ask the question, what in the hell is a starborn?  We know supposedly that one of Harry's talents if you could call it that is he has power over Outsiders.  Is that true of all starborn? Or is Harry unique? Rashid may fit, he fights Outsiders at the Outer Gates, and he may be old enough to be born 666 years ago, but at the same time being born in the right year doesn't a starborn make.. There are other factors that go into it if Lash is to be believed.  What of Listen and Drakul?  Do they have power over Outsiders as well?  Or were they formed for something else?