Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry

[Mira]

Harry asked Molly to use Neuromancy KNOWING that it will harm her, KNOWING that it violated her probation, KNOWING that his death also means hers, KNOWING that she loves him and this will TEAR HER UP inside yet that's his first choice. He chooses Murphy's mantoy, Ivy's only other "family" member as the tool. I was kind of hoping Ivy would tell him where he could go and what he could do with himself when he got there. Molly deserves SO much better then Harry too.

The point is, he asked her, she agreed, her choice, she was an adult at the time.  When was Kincaid ever Murphy's mantoy? 

1) I have been discussed for year that "you don't invade the mind of others" is not the same as "you cannot enter in another's mind if they are willing". So, I don't think that violated her probation.

Yes, and they had been violating that law for some time with their mental sparing.. If they hadn't done that the Corpsetaker would have had Molly's body.

2) Molly would be seriously hurt (specially being as sensitive as she is), sad and guilty, but Harry was in a place too dark to realize that. It is not uncommon for suicides in the real world to seriously understimate their importance in other people's lives. I don't think that make them bad people, only too damaged.

Very wise, and very true, a suicide really isn't responsible for his or her actions, they cannot see beyond their own acute pain.

3) He did not know that Ivy would know that Kinkaid was involved. How many people do you think Harry could have used instead?

No, the reason he had Molly wipe his mind in the first place was so Mab wouldn't be tipped off and stop him.  Apparently he misjudged because Ivy got the message, insisted on a chest shot, possible chance for survival, instead of a head shot, no chance for survival, and possibly tipped off Mab because she was waiting in the water with open arms.

4) Harry is a very traumathized man who is trying who do his best. Molly is an actual warlock who is also trying to do her best. I don't think she is so much deserving that him.

Indeed.

[StrayDog]

"his death also means hers". What? It is clear that is was not what happened. Also

He would have to possess clairvoyance at the time to know Carlos would slow walk the order to execute but the Council did order her execution because of Harry's death.

1) I have been discussed for year that "you don't invade the mind of others" is not the same as "you cannot enter in another's mind if they are willing". So, I don't think that violated her probation.

Given that Molly only looked around in a mind and that was enough for Morgan, even though in the end he didn't report it. Do you think that the Council would hesitate to kill them both for ANY reason?

2) Molly would be seriously hurt (specially being as sensitive as she is), sad and guilty, but Harry was in a place too dark to realize that. It is not uncommon for suicides in the real world to seriously understimate their importance in other people's lives. I don't think that make them bad people, only too damaged.

Finding out a loved on has committed suicide is not the same as having to help them commit suicide.

3) He did not know that Ivy would know that Kinkaid was involved. How many people do you think Harry could have used instead?

He knows that Ivy is the Archive, he knows that she knows. He even stated that he had a second option, his now bride-to-be Lara.

4) Harry is a very traumathized man who is trying who do his best. Molly is an actual warlock who is also trying to do her best. I don't think she is so much deserving that him.

I will politely agree to disagree.

[Arjan]

The point is, he asked her, she agreed, her choice, she was an adult at the time.  When was Kincaid ever Murphy's mantoy?

Dead beat. Harry took care of the plants while Murphy and Kincaid went to Hawaï.

Yes, and they had been violating that law for some time with their mental sparing.. If they hadn't done that the Corpsetaker would have had Molly's body.

They were not. The sparring was not an invasion. The mutual consent is what makes the difference.

Very wise, and very true, a suicide really isn't responsible for his or her actions, they cannot see beyond their own acute pain.No, the reason he had Molly wipe his mind in the first place was so Mab wouldn't be tipped off and stop him.  Apparently he misjudged because Ivy got the message, insisted on a chest shot, possible chance for survival, instead of a head shot, no chance for survival, and possibly tipped off Mab because she was waiting in the water with open arms.Indeed.

[Mira]

He would have to possess clairvoyance at the time to know Carlos would slow walk the order to execute but the Council did order her execution because of Harry's death.

Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.   

They were not. The sparring was not an invasion. The mutual consent is what makes the difference.

So it was when Harry suicided..

Dead beat. Harry took care of the plants while Murphy and Kincaid went to Hawaï.

Oh right, forgot about that, but all the same I wouldn't call Kincaid Murphy's mantoy.. Any more than she was his girltoy.. That is totally disrespectful to both, who were adults, and enjoyed each other's company for a time.

[StrayDog]

Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick ...

Which is arguing my point actually

[morriswalters]

I'm unsure why Jim wasted his time on Ghost Story.

I growled as a column of pure rage rose up my spine and made my voice rough. “I will make Maggie safe. If the world burns because of that, then so be it. Me and the kid will roast some marshmallows.”

Which is well before he breaks his back and the fallen monkey with him. Pretty clearly Jim is signalling that Harry would do anything including throwing Molly under the bus. And Jim has Uriel spell it out in Ghost Story.

“I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

An Ethicist might question Molly's ability to give informed consent given the power differential between them. Since he was her teacher and her crush. And the fact that his friends shielded her wouldn't have changed the fact that the threat would have always been there.  Mab sums it up in Cold Days

“Consider,” Mab said, “that I have done something for her that you never could have.” “What’s that, exactly?”
“I have put her beyond the reach of the White Council and their Wardens,” Mab said, again as if explaining something to an idiot. “While they might howl and lecture as much as they wish about an apprentice wizard, they can do nothing at all to the Winter Lady.” I took a deep breath. That . . . was also true.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 511). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

And I'm gone.

[Dina]

As I said, I don't reread Cold Days. But I do understand Harry impulse of suicide and I don't think he is a bad person for that.
And how would Harry know that Ivy would know? I still don't know how she knows. I don't believe Harry wrote his plan. Even then, Kinkaid was his best option.
Molly entered the mind of Harry, who was willing to do it. Harry did not invade her mind. And I don't think Harry thought the White Council will kill her for that.

And morris, I wish JB hadn't wasted his time in GS indeed. But I do remember Harry realized then (in GS, talking with Uriel as you said) that he had been wrong in thinking "let the world burn". That is when I realized he was not the monster I thought (I was so angry at him I almost stopped reading with that sentence). But He has been hurt and scared. Then he realized his mistake.

[StrayDog]

Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain.  They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.

... and thereby incapable for giving consent. The whole point of GS was to show Harry that he was pushed by the Fallen's words, his free will was compromised. No free will, no consent. If this was all so above reproach then why did Molly have so much mental damage directly related to the invasion? Mab complements Harry on the fantastic job he did of binding Molly to his will, so how did Molly have reasonable free will enough to give consent? The Fallen's words pushed Harry to kill himself, they didn't push him to a) plan a deception so Harry can get more power b) use that power to rescue his child c) plan killing himself in a way that hurts two of his most loved people.

@morriswalters I upvote your reply 1,000

[morriswalters]

@Dina
Ghost Story isn't on my list of favorites either.  Cold Days pretty much ended the series for me. It tied up a lot of loose ends from the first half of the books. And I can't get too vested going forward since I don't think I can get to the end.  There's a really good book inside Peace Talks and Battle Ground but it's buried under a lot of dross.

[Dina]

Oh, my problem began with Changes and the brat. I simply cannot love the books as much as I loved them before she entered on Harry's life. CD and GS were not bad books per se, I just couldn't gather the will to reread them.

Straydog, you contradict yourself. Harry was push to kill himself, that is where his free will was taken. But, as you say, the way he chose to do that was his own choosing, free will. So he gave his consent to Molly. And she was so guilty because a) she is extremely sensitive b) she CHOSE to help Harry. If her own free will has been taken, she wouldn't have any reason to feel guilty. She knows she helps to Harry getting killed and of course that hurts her.

[Arjan]

Suicides don't think things through, they cannot see beyond their own pain. 

Sure and red court half vampires don't think things through, they can not see beyond their bloodlust.

The dresden files are full of that kind of thing. They still count as free willed choices with sometimes big effects. Sometimes someone is there to help you like when Harry had to not kill Rudolph. As I read it killing Rudolph would have had bad consequences for Harry's soul. Emotionally it would be completely understandable.

They may think they are thinking things though, but their judgement is clouded by their severe emotional pain.  Harry's thinking here cannot be seen as rational, because it wasn't because in that moment his mind was very sick and to make matters worse there was one of the Fallen cheering him on to guarantee he'd do the job.   So it was when Harry suicided..

So it was but the white council's laws are not everything.

Morally the first consent was fine because it was made in a healthy state of mind and it resulted in both parties more sane and healthy and strong.

The second one was clouded by negative and suicidal emotions and unhealthy emotional pressures. Both are similarly allowed by a strict interpretation of the councils laws but their moral difference is clear and after reading ghost story the difference in effects on Molly is clear too.

It is like giving consent when you are drunk or under a white court vampires influence. It is not the same.

Oh right, forgot about that, but all the same I wouldn't call Kincaid Murphy's mantoy.. Any more than she was his girltoy.. That is totally disrespectful to both, who were adults, and enjoyed each other's company for a time.

Yes it implies a verdict about the quality of their relation and we know nothing about that. Jim promised us a short story about those two in Hawai.

[Arjan]

@Dina
Ghost Story isn't on my list of favorites either.  Cold Days pretty much ended the series for me. It tied up a lot of loose ends from the first half of the books. And I can't get too vested going forward since I don't think I can get to the end.  There's a really good book inside Peace Talks and Battle Ground but it's buried under a lot of dross.

I rate Ghost story far above battle ground. It has things like plot, world building, characterizations and wonderful dialog. It is not just one big battle.

Especially everything Lea, Just read the parts with her in it.

[Dina]

After SG, a lot of my love for the DF was back. And now, after BG, I am finally beginning to want to reread the whole series. It will take me a long time, though, because I decided to reread the duology first. I am on chapter 12 of PT, so about 1/6 of the total.

[Arjan]

After SG, a lot of my love for the DF was back. And now, after BG, I am finally beginning to want to reread the whole series. It will take me a long time, though, because I decided to reread the duology first. I am on chapter 12 of PT, so about 1/6 of the total.

I seldom reread everything at once. I usually pick favorite scenes and Ghost story has a few of them. 

[Dina]

I do that from time to time but randomly. For instance, one day I feel like rereading one particular scene of a book and I do it. When I do that I usually end reading 4 or 5 chapters 
But all my books (including Changes, but not GS or CD) had a cover to ending reread not long after the first read.