Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.

[morriswalters]

Please. We ask this much of people all the time. Or have you never heard of a military draft? Hell, forget a draft, by your logic we couldn't even ask for volunteers.  Also I could really care less about what Uriel says or doesn't say. Uriel is right about some things and wrong about others, just like anyone else.

You asked a question and I gave you a direct answer.  The denouement is how Jim makes sure you understand the narrative as he's written it.  I just quoted it to you.  This is what the WOJ was talking about.  That you don't accept it is on you. Ask Jim.

[Shift8]

You asked a question and I gave you a direct answer.  The denouement is how Jim makes sure you understand the narrative as he's written it.  I just quoted it to you.  This is what the WOJ was talking about.  That you don't accept it is on you. Ask Jim.

-Just because a character says something in the denouement doesn't meant its the intention of the author as a moral lesson. Frequently it is, but not always.

-Just because the author thinks a thing does not make that thing true. I can reject the opinion of Jim Butcher, assuming that is his opinion. While I frequently agree with Jim, he can be wrong. If he thinks Harry did anything particularly bad in changes, he is wrong in my opinion.

-You appear to have missed the bit where Uriel says he literally saved Molly.

-I also posted the explicit proof that Molly knew about the stakes before she made her decision. She was fully cognizant of the ramifications. And Molly has said she would do it again, and clearly harbors no ill will towards Harry. Additionally, in the denouement you posted we see Harry bashing himself again. Something he scolding for by Shiro in death masks and by Micheal in Skin Game. IIRC, the scolding Micheal gives Harry is in the denouement.

-

[flying peach]

Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you.

Harry never sexually harassed her (he never made unwanted and/or consistent sexual comments or advances towards her).

In addition, there are federal statutes and regulations (and case law from multiple appellate Courts interpreting the federal statutes and regulations) addressing sexual harassment plus fifty states with fifty sets of criminal laws, civil statutes, and case law interpreting those laws. A blanket statement that the entire body of law both criminal and civil disagrees with the op is simply untrue.

Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.

He was her teacher; but, more importantly he was her master. The master-servant relationship comes with a whole host of duties towards the apprentice including teaching the apprentice the master's craft. Wizarding is an inherently dangerous profession (witness the number of wardens that died in the vampire wars); and, especially under Harry fighting supernatural powers in defense of humanity is an important part of the profession.

The series suggests that up until Changes, Harry spent too much time trying to protect Molly during her apprenticeship. For instance, he taught her shielding with snowballs instead of baseballs. ( Harry was trained with baseballs thrown at him, Harry's warden boss ex-girlfriend was trained with rocks thrown at her; and, Harry's fairy godmother [if I remember correctly] explicitly told Harry that he had been too soft in training Molly).

Two things:...Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master.  That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.

He did not owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. For instance, if she practiced black magic then it would have been his duty to turn himself and Molly into the White Council for execution. He accepted the responsibility (risking execution) to supervise, control, and train Molly; but, by the nature of the punishment (his and Molly's execution) it's fairly explicit that he didn't owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive.

[Mira]

Harry never sexually harassed her (he never made unwanted and/or consistent sexual comments or advances towards her).

In fact, and it was a huge topic of discussion here was after he soul gazed her, he dumped a bucket of ice water over her, and told her that wasn't the kind of relationship they were going to have.  Though from the soul gaze he knew she very much wanted that kind of relationship.

The series suggests that up until Changes, Harry spent too much time trying to protect Molly during her apprenticeship. For instance, he taught her shielding with snowballs instead of baseballs. ( Harry was trained with baseballs thrown at him, Harry's warden boss ex-girlfriend was trained with rocks thrown at her; and, Harry's fairy godmother [if I remember correctly] explicitly told Harry that he had been too soft in training Molly).

He may have been somewhat soft on her, but one has to understand Lea's point of view also.  She was hardening Molly so she could successfully handle a Winter or Summer Lady Mantle. 

He did not owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. For instance, if she practiced black magic then it would have been his duty to turn himself and Molly into the White Council for execution. He accepted the responsibility (risking execution) to supervise, control, and train Molly, but by the nature of the punishment (his and Molly's execution) it's fairly explicit that he didn't owe her an absolute duty to keep her alive.

Molly also stubbornly kept her own council on that as well.  In Turn Coat when she looked into both Morgan and Luccio's minds without permission, that could have been a death sentence for both herself and Harry, but she did it anyway.  Why? Because she felt it was the right thing to do and worth the risk.  Her sense of right and wrong trumped everything.

Why does someone assist someone else to take their own life?  Usually it is because that person is in severe pain and is going to face even more pain and eventual death.  It usually is an act done out of love, because you agree that death is the better option.  Molly knew how Harry felt about being Mab's Winter Knight, about being used by Mab.  At that point she had the same view point as Harry, that Mab was pure evil and she'd use Harry to do evil.  Death was his only way out of it, but if Mab was tipped off, she'd stop it.  So she assisted him, she was the only one who could.  She was as ignorant as Harry was about the Fallen Angel who magnified his hopelessness to the point where he wished to die.  Yes, he left her to suffer, suicide is selfish in that respect, the one who does it is beyond pain, but the survivors suffer.  It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.

[flying peach]

It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.

Molly may be better then Harry deserves.

[Arjan]

-Oh come on. The difference there is obvious. If you ask someone to murder someone it is equivalent to doing the murder yourself because you are asking for something that is not justified for the person (or for you) to do. Asking Molly to take risks and kill Harry is perfectly justifiable. It is Harry's life, so he can ask someone to end it if he pleases, especially since he was doing it to prevent his being used by Mab.

-So what. Molly knew back when she was tried the first time that there would be severe consequences if she was found out again.

And it was Harry’s responsibility to protect her from that and teach her to make better decisions. She was his pupil, this was not the right way to teach her.

Second, its not clear that she was necessarily going to be caught.

Is something morally just because you might not get caught?

Third, its not the cliff situation because her death was not certain.

Comparisons stop somewhere. Ramirez did not do his job. But ir was certain enough for the comparison to be valid.

Clearly, as she is still alive. Dresden didn't deprive her of her ability to defend herself or hide from the WC.

So giving someone a mortal enemy is ok because you can defend yourself? Lea made sure she could handle herself against the enemy she summoned in ghost story for molly but she arranged it as a learning experience for Harry and Molly and accepted the risk.

Fourth, Molly's situation was beyond Dresden's control and he is not responsible for what the WC does to her.

He created that situation by his suicide. You might say that was Lasciel’s fault but she only provided the tipping point, it was totally in character.

And he asked her to assist in that. That was his choice.

And as her master she was not beyond his control or responsibility. It was a responsibility he took upon himself

Fifth, she was going to be up a creek without a paddle anyhow since Dresden was going to be the winter knight if she didnt kill him or wipe his memories.

Which was totally self centered. He deserted his friends. But that is what a lot of suicides have in common.

Maybe I am forgetting something, but I would love to know how the WC was supposed to know that Molly was responsible for wipe his memories. Could have been anyone, including Harry. Hell, how did they know Dresden had his memories wiped after making the deal with Mab?

That was not a violation of the seven laws in that act anyway because Harry invited Molly in his mind. The problem was his suicide. Without Harry the white council would hunt Molly whatever one of them did.

-I am perfectly within my rights to sell you a mortgage you cannot handle so long as you know the details of the mortgage. Its hardly my responsibility to stop someone from being an idiot. I, not anyone else, was born into this world with a responsibility to stop idiots from being idiots.

In some countries you are not. And this is not about what is legally right, you knowingly create problems for people they can not solve and have dire consequences for them. That is morally wrong. It is predatory behavior whatever you tell yourself.

People who think they have the right to do everything that the law allows them to do and so everything they do is morally right have no conscience.

-There is no such thing as hell. And if there were, it would be more morally reprehensible than anything discussed here.

It is a metaphor to underline how wrong that behavior is. See it as the einsteinian hell.

[Arjan]

In fact, and it was a huge topic of discussion here was after he soul gazed her, he dumped a bucket of ice water over her, and told her that wasn't the kind of relationship they were going to have.  Though from the soul gaze he knew she very much wanted that kind of relationship.

He may have been somewhat soft on her, but one has to understand Lea's point of view also.  She was hardening Molly so she could successfully handle a Winter or Summer Lady Mantle. 

Molly also stubbornly kept her own council on that as well.  In Turn Coat when she looked into both Morgan and Luccio's minds without permission, that could have been a death sentence for both herself and Harry, but she did it anyway.  Why? Because she felt it was the right thing to do and worth the risk.  Her sense of right and wrong trumped everything.

And whose responsibility was it to do something about that?

Why does someone assist someone else to take their own life?  Usually it is because that person is in severe pain and is going to face even more pain and eventual death.  It usually is an act done out of love, because you agree that death is the better option.  Molly knew how Harry felt about being Mab's Winter Knight, about being used by Mab.  At that point she had the same view point as Harry, that Mab was pure evil and she'd use Harry to do evil.  Death was his only way out of it, but if Mab was tipped off, she'd stop it.  So she assisted him, she was the only one who could.  She was as ignorant as Harry was about the Fallen Angel who magnified his hopelessness to the point where he wished to die.  Yes, he left her to suffer, suicide is selfish in that respect, the one who does it is beyond pain, but the survivors suffer.  It was, however a freely given act of love to someone in great pain.

[Mira]

And whose responsibility was it to do something about that?

And he tried, that is all he could do, you talk like Harry ignored Molly and let her run wild.  Far from
it.  Yeah, maybe he threw snowballs at her instead of rocks, but his borderline illegal mental sparing with her saved her from the Corpstaker.  Luccio could repel rocks, but she lost her original body because she couldn't repel a mental attack.

As to assisting Harry's suicide.  Harry cannot be held responsible because a Fallen Angel had messed with his mind, he was in severe mental pain in that moment. He reached out to the only person who could help him.  Molly loved him and what is more felt his pain and agreed with him.  She wasn't some silly child easily led astray, she knew exactly what she was doing.  Yes, the guilt from that brought her pain, but you know what?  She accepts the responsibility for what she did, if she didn't, she'd resent and hold it against Harry, she doesn't.  And no, Molly isn't some kind of forgiving saint.

[Arjan]

The whisper of the fallen gave Uriel enough room to interfere but whether it absolves him from all responsibility is debatable. It is completely in line with his nature and he could have done it without the whisper as well, it just removed the free choice to do so. Which is a big thing but Harry filled most of the bucket, the fallen just added a few drops.

[Mira]

The whisper of the fallen gave Uriel enough room to interfere but whether it absolves him from all responsibility is debatable. It is completely in line with his nature and he could have done it without the whisper as well, it just removed the free choice to do so. Which is a big thing but Harry filled most of the bucket, the fallen just added a few drops.

Free choice says it all..  Doesn't matter how full the bucket was if it didn't overflow, it was the Fallen that caused the floor to get wet.  Harry was on the ledge, guilt complex in hyper-drive, a Fallen angel came along who knew him well and pushed him off.  Thinking about jumping off isn't the same as being pushed off. Being pushed isn't free will.

[Arjan]

Free choice says it all..  Doesn't matter how full the bucket was if it didn't overflow, it was the Fallen that caused the floor to get wet.  Harry was on the ledge, guilt complex in hyper-drive, a Fallen angel came along who knew him well and pushed him off.  Thinking about jumping off isn't the same as being pushed off. Being pushed isn't free will.

And besides that it is difficult to see where the fallen influences stops and his free will began. Harry decided how to commit suicide and who to involve. And he decided to bring Molly to CI.

[morriswalters]

-Just because a character says something in the denouement doesn't meant its the intention of the author as a moral lesson. Frequently it is, but not always.

-Just because the author thinks a thing does not make that thing true. I can reject the opinion of Jim Butcher, assuming that is his opinion. While I frequently agree with Jim, he can be wrong. If he thinks Harry did anything particularly bad in changes, he is wrong in my opinion.

-You appear to have missed the bit where Uriel says he literally saved Molly.

-I also posted the explicit proof that Molly knew about the stakes before she made her decision. She was fully cognizant of the ramifications. And Molly has said she would do it again, and clearly harbors no ill will towards Harry. Additionally, in the denouement you posted we see Harry bashing himself again. Something he scolding for by Shiro in death masks and by Micheal in Skin Game. IIRC, the scolding Micheal gives Harry is in the denouement.

-

Here is your logical position.  The author tells you something about a character he wrote.  And because you don't like what he said, he doesn't know what he's talking about.  Would that sum up your position?

Now since you say Harry did nothing wrong since Molly consented, then it would seem that both you and Mira take the position, that when Nicodemus killed his daughter, that he did nothing morally wrong? Since she assented to his proposition.

And you should do a reality check on your knowledge of law and morality. If you aid someone who is committing a crime then you yourself become part of that crime. Contrarily, if you suborn a crime then you are part of that crime.  That you do, or do not, get caught changes nothing, and the legality of either has nothing to do with their morality. It is perfectly possible for an act to be legal yet immoral and conversely moral yet illegal.

On the basis of personal morality the only questions needed to be asked have nothing to do with what Molly did or did not do. The only question of interest is, did Harry follow his own moral code?

I stared at her for a minute. Then I said, in a very quiet voice, “I always know when I’m being tempted to do something very, very wrong. I start sentences with phrases like, ‘I would never, ever do this—but.’ Or ‘I know this is wrong but.’ It’s the but that tips you off.”

“Harry,” Molly began.

“You broke one of the Laws of Magic, Molly. Willfully. Even though you knew it could cost you your life. Even though you knew that it could also cost mine.” I shook my head and looked away from her. “Hell’s bells, kid. I choose to trust Anastasia Luccio because that’s what people do. You don’t ever get to know for sure what someone thinks of you. What they really feel inside.”

You’d never know.” “You could do that,” I said, quietly. “And I feel like an utter bastard for asking this of you, grasshopper. But I don’t have anyone else to ask.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 537). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

And besides that it is difficult to see where the fallen influences stops and his free will began. Harry decided how to commit suicide and who to involve. And he decided to bring Molly to CI.

I think it's pretty clear, free will, contemplating suicide, even thinking how best to do it and elude Mab.
But carrying it out?  That's the part where the Fallen Angel comes in, then it becomes committing suicide,that is what she pushed him to.