Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]

[SerScot]

Justine trying to con her way onto Demonreach with an outsider in possession of her is a huge plot hole.  She’s already been on Demonreach.  She was there while the Outsiders assaulted the Island in Cold Days.

If she was already possessed by an outsider (HWHBeside said he’s held her since she started getting close to Lara that goes back to White Night) why didn’t she use her position to sucker punch everyone and release the horrors in the Well?  Why wait?

[Griffyn612]

Well first, Maeve's comment on Demonreach suggests Justine was of interest to her and Beside, but not that she was already infected. 

Second, even if she was, maybe she was laying in wait for Maeve to take down the defenses so she could get in.  But then Mab showed up and things went downhill.

[SerScot]

Well first, Maeve's comment on Demonreach suggests Justine was of interest to her and Beside, but not that she was already infected. 

Second, even if she was, maybe she was laying in wait for Maeve to take down the defenses so she could get in.  But then Mab showed up and things went downhill.

If her presence on Demonreach... at all... is a problem as the scene in BG implies then why didn’t she pull the trigger when everyone was locked in combat and Alfred was, if not “neutralized” extremely busy?

HWWBeside said he’s been in possession of Justine since she got close to Lara that’s White Night she fed serious information to Thomas and Harry in Turn Coat.  That also puts a very different spin on the scene with Thomas in Ghost Story.  She needed Thomas dependent.

[morriswalters]

Jim has so many threads dangling he's losing track.

[Griffyn612]

If her presence on Demonreach... at all... is a problem as the scene in BG implies then why didn’t she pull the trigger when everyone was locked in combat and Alfred was, if not “neutralized” extremely busy?

HWWBeside said he’s been in possession of Justine since she got close to Lara that’s White Night she fed serious information to Thomas and Harry in Turn Coat.  That also puts a very different spin on the scene with Thomas in Ghost Story.  She needed Thomas dependent.

That's why I'm saying she wasn't infected at that time. The text suggests otherwise.  It makes more sense that she was infected on her mission to Corb's domain pre-Even Hand. Maybe they infected her and faked the escape, or maybe she was infected without her knowing in the process of a successful mission.

[forumghost]

Remember- Nemesis wasn't just trying to trick itself onto Demonreach- it specifically wanted to be invited down into the caverns below the Island.

[ClintACK]

Remember- Nemesis wasn't just trying to trick itself onto Demonreach- it specifically wanted to be invited down into the caverns below the Island.

Ooh, yeah that.

I was going to say that Demonreach is actually exhausted after reaching all the way to Chicago to capture Ethniu. Demonreach was at basically full strength in Cold Days, though its Warden wasn't.

[Mira]

Justine trying to con her way onto Demonreach with an outsider in possession of her is a huge plot hole.  She’s already been on Demonreach.  She was there while the Outsiders assaulted the Island in Cold Days.

If she was already possessed by an outsider (HWHBeside said he’s held her since she started getting close to Lara that goes back to White Night) why didn’t she use her position to sucker punch everyone and release the horrors in the Well?  Why wait?

It may not have been possible then, or she may not have known about it until Harry got full control of the island, then it purposes would be better known.  Harry didn't even know what he could do as Warden, if he had, Shaggy would be doing hard time now.

[Yuillegan]

Jim's editor Anne Sowards commented in the Barnes & Noble Q&A that there is at least ONE major plot hole that she noticed that Jim said is necessary to future books.

Maybe this is it.

[Griffyn612]

Jim's editor Anne Sowards commented in the Barnes & Noble Q&A that there is at least ONE major plot hole that she noticed that Jim said is necessary to future books.

Maybe this is it.

And here I figured it was the Cristos was burned and badly injured against Ethniu but apparently recovered in time for the Senior Council vote.

[peregrine]

If Justine is being possessed, how would Thomas have the True Love Protection from someone who wasn't really in control of themselves, or possibly even truly in love at all?

Though that does torpedo my theory that Nemesis can't possess mortal humans.

[Griffyn612]

If Justine is being possessed, how would Thomas have the True Love Protection from someone who wasn't really in control of themselves, or possibly even truly in love at all?

Though that does torpedo my theory that Nemesis can't possess mortal humans.

Would Thomas have protection of True Love? Justine would, and did, at least at one point. But would Thomas be safe from the others?

As for the Beside not infecting mortals thing, that really seemed out the window after the Cold Days list, but full control is still somewhat surprising. They have to abide by the thrice asked rule but not other mortal limitations?

[B33bl3br0x]

I'm convinced that this is one of the things that happened the night of Bianca's party. If you remember, before that, Justine was with Thomas because she had a condition that made her basically insane, and Thomas feeding on her made her even out. Yet after Bianca's party she went for years without being fed on and she was just fine.

I've been convinced that Justine was be nemfected since nemesis was identified; it allows beings act against their nature, and Justine was suddenly this totally cool and put together person. I'm convinced that this is another one of the 'several things of significance' that happened that night, of which Harry was unaware. Her saying that it was when she started getting close to Lara was just another ploy, imho, to get Harry to think that Lara is the one who infected Justine (You know, since the ploy of getting Justine into the depths of Demon Reach was clearly failing).

[TheCuriousFan]

I'm convinced that this is one of the things that happened the night of Bianca's party. If you remember, before that, Justine was with Thomas because she had a condition that made her basically insane, and Thomas feeding on her made her even out. Yet after Bianca's party she went for years without being fed on and she was just fine.

I've been convinced that Justine was be nemfected since nemesis was identified; it allows beings act against their nature, and Justine was suddenly this totally cool and put together person. I'm convinced that this is another one of the 'several things of significance' that happened that night, of which Harry was unaware. Her saying that it was when she started getting close to Lara was just another ploy, imho, to get Harry to think that Lara is the one who infected Justine (You know, since the ploy of getting Justine into the depths of Demon Reach was clearly failing).

He was pretty regularly feeding on Justine until the events of Blood Rites, Harry even makes an argument based on it after the monkey chase IIRC.

[Griffyn612]

I'm convinced that this is one of the things that happened the night of Bianca's party.

In Blood Rites, a nearly comatose Justine points the good guys to the Deeps.  Doing so jeopardizes the ritual Raith was performing, which was to summon Behind.  What you're proposing would mean Beside worked against summoning Behind.

I just don't see the point in thinking the enemy is lying.  Everyone thought it was a Maeve lie to Lily that Beside/Nemesis was involved with everyone, now there's an argument that Beside is lying again.
 There's just no point to it.  It'd hurt Harry more if he thought every moment he'd had with Justine had been with Beside; that their shared experience in the basement at Bianca's had been a lie, that it'd been Beside who showed up at his door in nothing but a ribbon.