The one thing in battleground the bugged me: [BG Spoilers]

[Shift8]

Edited to remove spoiler content from subject.
 - Griff

One of the most exciting things of the entire battleground book in my opinion was the scene where the Apache attack helicopters come at the end and royally fuck up the retreating Fomor. I waiting the entire book just for that scene, which I felt like I knew was coming the entire time since the arrival of the National Guard was foreshadowed numerous times. One of the best parts of the Dresden files more me has always been the relevance of the mortal world. In the DF, guns are not useless weapons. Magic and the supernatural are just different kinds of threats, and the combination of the two adds tremendous flavor the series.

In my head during the book I was hoping for a scene where a main battle tank arrives down a street and puts a sabot through some big baddie, but the helicopters were cool enough.

But the disappointing thing is that even though it is repeatedly stated over and over that this battle is simply to big to be covered up or missed, at the end of the book everyone is saying that it is successfully being covered up.


Sorry, but I call BS. Suspension of disbelief officially suspended. There is no fucking way that 8000 monsters attack a city, killing 20-60,000 people (the book listed different figures at different times), prompting the involvement of the military.......and it gets covered up. Eight Million people saw this shit go down. There is tons of destruction everywhere. Too. many. witnesses.

Also this story took place in time parallel to our own. Too many electronic devices to record things with, and too many ways for that information to leave the city. The explanation at the end about electronics and magic was bullshit. There are probably more phones and computers in Chicago than there are people. And not all of them would have been affected. Even in the places where there was the most reality breakdown due to magic, someones phone or camera was probably working. And Chicago is a big place. There were probably people who recorded things from a distance from tall buildings etc just like during natural disasters like the explosions that occurred in China not too long ago. Also we know for a fact, not even a conjecture, that at least some electronics were working in close proximity to the battle. The attack helicopters. There systems were clearly working or they would not have been able to operating their guns or even fly for that matter. Comms in and out of the city must have been working in come capacity as well, or how else did the NG and other emergency services even get called in or organized?

I really hope that in the next novel this gets undone and it the mortal world comes into knowledge of the supernatural. I think this will take the story in a very interesting direction.

[Telynn]

One of the most exciting things of the entire battleground book in my opinion was the scene where the Apache attack helicopters come at the end and royally fuck up the retreating Fomor. I waiting the entire book just for that scene, which I felt like I knew was coming the entire time since the arrival of the National Guard was foreshadowed numerous times. One of the best parts of the Dresden files more me has always been the relevance of the mortal world. In the DF, guns are not useless weapons. Magic and the supernatural are just different kinds of threats, and the combination of the two adds tremendous flavor the series.

In my head during the book I was hoping for a scene where a main battle tank arrives down a street and puts a sabot through some big baddie, but the helicopters were cool enough.

But the disappointing thing is that even though it is repeatedly stated over and over that this battle is simply to big to be covered up or missed, at the end of the book everyone is saying that it is successfully being covered up.


Sorry, but I call BS. Suspension of disbelief officially suspended. There is no fucking way that 8000 monsters attack a city, killing 20-60,000 people (the book listed different figures at different times), prompting the involvement of the military.......and it gets covered up. Eight Million people saw this shit go down. There is tons of destruction everywhere. Too. many. witnesses.

Also this story took place in time parallel to our own. Too many electronic devices to record things with, and too many ways for that information to leave the city. The explanation at the end about electronics and magic was bullshit. There are probably more phones and computers in Chicago than there are people. And not all of them would have been affected. Even in the places where there was the most reality breakdown due to magic, someones phone or camera was probably working. And Chicago is a big place. There were probably people who recorded things from a distance from tall buildings etc just like during natural disasters like the explosions that occurred in China not too long ago. Also we know for a fact, not even a conjecture, that at least some electronics were working in close proximity to the battle. The attack helicopters. There systems were clearly working or they would not have been able to operating their guns or even fly for that matter. Comms in and out of the city must have been working in come capacity as well, or how else did the NG and other emergency services even get called in or organized?

I really hope that in the next novel this gets undone and it the mortal world comes into knowledge of the supernatural. I think this will take the story in a very interesting direction.

What I'm thinking is it will be in the later books that this slowly spreads and things start changing.  Plus there is NO WAY it is business as usual in Chicago.  Maybe they can convince the masses around the nation and world (there will be a HUGE 'conspiracy theory type group that doesn't buy it), but the people of Chicago know better.  It will interesting to see how Jim plays this out in the upcoming books.  there just wasn't time in this one to expound on it.

[The_Sibelis]

It becomes stuff of rumor and hearsay beyond someone who experienced it. A good RL example is the death camps during WW2, we'd heard tell they exist, not even all the german troops bore witness to them until shown after the war. And the war was outright denied in Cuba leading to the famous Remington quote,"if you furnish the pictures, I'll furnish the war." Also part of why they left auswitz, "one monument to the horrors perpetuated will do more to prevent it's reoccurrence than any history book or retelling ever will."(probably futzed that quote a little, but it conveys the idea readily enough.

[Arjan]

Everyone in power wants to cover it up including the mortals. That does not mean they will ultimately succeed but it is a strong force. There is a rack in it and it will only get wider but we don’t get a completely different world in one day, it will take some time.

[Shift8]

It becomes stuff of rumor and hearsay beyond someone who experienced it. A good RL example is the death camps during WW2, we'd heard tell they exist, not even all the german troops bore witness to them until shown after the war. And the war was outright denied in Cuba leading to the famous Remington quote,"if you furnish the pictures, I'll furnish the war." Also part of why they left auswitz, "one monument to the horrors perpetuated will do more to prevent it's reoccurrence than any history book or retelling ever will."(probably futzed that quote a little, but it conveys the idea readily enough.

Sorry, not the same thing at all. The death camps were somewhat sequestered from the general public, and even still rumors abounded (and higher ups knew it for a fact). Hiding the Chicago incident would be more like trying to tell Japan nukes dont exist after Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

[Arjan]

Sorry, not the same thing at all. The death camps were somewhat sequestered from the general public, and even still rumors abounded (and higher ups knew it for a fact). Hiding the Chicago incident would be more like trying to tell Japan nukes dont exist after Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Nuclear bombs are natural. There is some sort of inner resistance in most mortals against really seeing the supernatural for what it is. A lot of people accept any explanation above the supernatural one. I think there is a supernatural explanation for that.

[morriswalters]

This is discussed at the end of the book. How a major terrorist attack was declared. But everyone in the country would want a face to hate. And they would want blood.  Look at the butchers bill from one attack which killed 3000 people.  Google Maps takes street view pictures daily, somewhere, and if the cameras didn't work during the devastation, they would start working afterword and YouTube would be full of it. This isn't 1945.

[Griffyn612]

I think the implication was that the first blast took out every electronic device within miles.  Anything with a battery plugged in.

At that point, you think maybe some folks had devices without batteries in them, and they survived the blast. They loaded the batteries in to video tape the craziness outside...

And another blast fires and fries everything within miles.

Wave after wave of Murphionic energy was likely enough to truly, genuinely take out all electronic recording devices, and possibly fry hard drives and memory cards in the process.

Maybe there are film cameras out there with some shots.  But how many clear shots did they get with no lights anywhere?  Just pitch black night to take pictures from too far away to see anything.

I'm sure some footage would survive somehow, but then you'll have the Librarians sweeping in to steal that like they did with the loup video years earlier.

It's going to boil down to millions of people not seeing anything, millions seeing stuff and going into denial, and millions seeing stuff and believing. 

And remember, Harry isn't the one saying things are contained.  The others are. Harry is saying things are definitely out and they should plan accordingly.  So despite all the efforts of the government and the Librarians and the Wamps and the rest, the seal has been broken. 

[The_Sibelis]

Sorry, not the same thing at all. The death camps were somewhat sequestered from the general public, and even still rumors abounded (and higher ups knew it for a fact). Hiding the Chicago incident would be more like trying to tell Japan nukes dont exist after Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

that isn't even the same at all sorry. Trying to tell Hiro and Naga nukes don't exist is like telling chicago it never happened, that's NOT what they are trying to do. They are controlling the hear say that reaches beyond which is EXACTLY the same. Americans had heard of the camps, Germans had heard of them, but if you didn't see them they just weren't real to you. Plausible deniability in the extreme.

[Shift8]

I think the implication was that the first blast took out every electronic device within miles.  Anything with a battery plugged in.

At that point, you think maybe some folks had devices without batteries in them, and they survived the blast. They loaded the batteries in to video tape the craziness outside...

And another blast fires and fries everything within miles.

Wave after wave of Murphionic energy was likely enough to truly, genuinely take out all electronic recording devices, and possibly fry hard drives and memory cards in the process.

Maybe there are film cameras out there with some shots.  But how many clear shots did they get with no lights anywhere?  Just pitch black night to take pictures from too far away to see anything.

I'm sure some footage would survive somehow, but then you'll have the Librarians sweeping in to steal that like they did with the loup video years earlier.

It's going to boil down to millions of people not seeing anything, millions seeing stuff and going into denial, and millions seeing stuff and believing. 

And remember, Harry isn't the one saying things are contained.  The others are. Harry is saying things are definitely out and they should plan accordingly.  So despite all the efforts of the government and the Librarians and the Wamps and the rest, the seal has been broken.

Right but we know that stuff was still working. Assuming every single device was taken out, especially given the large numbers, doesnt fly. Murphys motorcycle was able to start, for one. I'd have to reread it but my intuition tells me there were many things working, implied or otherwise, that were taken for granted before the council tried to claim this as a reason it will be easy to hide this event.

[Griffyn612]

Right but we know that stuff was still working. Assuming every single device was taken out, especially given the large numbers, doesnt fly. Murphys motorcycle was able to start, for one. I'd have to reread it but my intuition tells me there were many things working, implied or otherwise, that were taken for granted before the council tried to claim this as a reason it will be easy to hide this event.

The only things said to be working are things with batteries taken out or run on gas without modern electrical components.

They kept swapping out batteries in their walkie talkies, and even those weren't lasting with swaps.  I'm not sure what motorcycle Murphy had but it might have been an older one with a battery and not much else on the way of electronics. 

Remember, the more modern, the more susceptible. So any smartphone or modem camera would be worthless.  Only old school cameras would make it through a blast or two, but eventually the odds would be against them.

[Shift8]

but if you didn't see them they just weren't real to you. Plausible deniability in the extreme.

Sorry but this is just absurd.

-20,000 to 60000 people were killed.
-There is massive property damage.
-The NG was called in. Do you understand the kind of coordination that requires? Guardsman had to be called in. Weapons and Vehicles had to be prepared. Civilians had to be coordinated with. Unleashing the military for a huge conventional assault on a city requires a massive level of involvement at many levels.
-The communications in and out of the city had to be sufficient enough to allow the decision to be made to employ the army. If communications simply died off, this response would never have happened.
-The attack helicopters knew exactly where to go in order to catch the retreating Fomor. This requires communications. Even if they spotting the Fomor visually or with thermal imagers, they had to know where the battle was taking place.
-If in fact an incident occurred and nearly all communications and recording devices were disabled, that in and of itself is enough of a red herring too make it impossible for anyone to believe the cover up. How does a city get attacked in the information age to the order of tens of thousands of casualties, and not a single video gets posted to the internet or the news etc?
-There is too big a leak at the government level. Even if the government tried to cut off the city, this would not work. Operations on this level cannot be kept under wraps after the fact. Too many people would have to be in the know. All of those chopper pilots saw what they saw, and their gun cameras recorded it. All of the NG troops on the way to help would have to have been briefed, even if vaguely, on what they were going in to face. And explanation would have to be provided to the literally thousands of government officials who would be involved in sequestering the city and dealing with the aftermath. Even if somehow the city of Chicago could be quarantined (which it cant btw) the rest of the nation is going to be discussing the matter and there are too many loose ends for a coverup to hold water.
-A terrorist attack is not going to make sense. No single non-nuclear weapon would have resulted in the level of destruction seen. There is no radiation and a nuclear detonation would have been seen internationally. 8000 terrorists could not sneak unnoticed into a major city in a developed country with the weapons and equipment needed to unleash that level of destruction on a city and inflict that many casualties. Moreover, they left no bodies, so a natural explanation is going to be impossible to make up. Especialyll when you have 8 million people saying otherwise. How are they going to stop the city from talking in this era? Are they going to cut off the internet/phones/cars from all of Chicago? The legal ramifications of doing so would be their own hilarity. How is that going to be justified to the rest of the country? How do you explain to the rest of the world why you are cutting off all travel and communications from a city that was just attacked?

[Avernite]

I admit, it felt a bit weird to me too. And I suspect it really IS too big to contain.

Just, not yet. For a while, Chicago (and NG-inclusive hinterland) can be a woke island in a sea of the unknowing, with information slowly trickling out. I think the coverers-up are making a mistake, and it will cost them when the truth gets out, but eh, that might be after the next election.

[Shift8]

The only things said to be working are things with batteries taken out or run on gas without modern electrical components.

They kept swapping out batteries in their walkie talkies, and even those weren't lasting with swaps.  I'm not sure what motorcycle Murphy had but it might have been an older one with a battery and not much else on the way of electronics. 

Remember, the more modern, the more susceptible. So any smartphone or modem camera would be worthless.  Only old school cameras would make it through a blast or two, but eventually the odds would be against them.

Except there are several problems with this. For one, the batteries in a walkie talkie are different from those in other devices. We dont know how different batteries are affected. Additionally, the motorcycle requires electronics to start. A battery and electrical wiring etc. There are also lots of devices that can record video without a battery. My laptop can be plugged in without the battery inserted. And on top of that, murphys radio proves that electronic devices were not totally wiped out. Her radio worked, and long enough between battery swaps to be tactically useful.

There is also the glaring issue of the attack choppers. Those things are full of electronics required for function, both in the weapons and for flying. They are basically flying computers. Those worked but I am supposed to believe that no one got footage of the attack? Rubbish.

The Formor literally discussed the arrival of the "mechanical weapons" of the NG arriving. They discussed it as a matter of concern, so clearly they were also not confident that if they were still fighting by the time the NG arrived that the magical energy present would somehow save them.

[Arjan]

I admit, it felt a bit weird to me too. And I suspect it really IS too big to contain.

Just, not yet. For a while, Chicago (and NG-inclusive hinterland) can be a woke island in a sea of the unknowing, with information slowly trickling out. I think the coverers-up are making a mistake, and it will cost them when the truth gets out, but eh, that might be after the next election.

Nobody expect it to hold indefinitely but if they can get rid of the fomor and get some time to think and prepare before the masquerade crumbles it would be worth the effort.