Battle Ground secrets (old and new) and possible implications (Spoilers galore)

[KurtinStGeorge]

Another name for this thread was:
Battle Ground secrets - What should Harry do about them

1.  Of course, the big reveal was that Marcone is now a Knight of the Blackened Denarius.  I suppose if Butters or Sanya need to know this, their boss will point them at Marcone.  However, it seems rude for Harry to keep this knowledge to himself, especially as Butters and Sanya are friends, not someone he would have to trade favor for favor with.  Plus, it wasn’t information Harry learned in confidence, Harry doesn’t owe Marcone anything. 

You’d think Lara Raith would like to know about this, seeing that her and Marcone are rivals even if they are not outright enemies.  If Harry; as a representative of Winter, is supposed to play nice with the White Court of Vampires, it might be a piece of information he should be willing to trade with Lara, if not tell her outright.
 
Mab really, really doesn’t like Thorned Namshiel.  She knows a lot, but I wonder if she knows who Marcone’s new friend is.  All Harry would have to say to Mab is “I know who holds Thorned Namshiel’s coin” to see if Mab is interested.  She may already know, but if Mab didn’t know it would be nice trading chip for Harry to have.
   
2.  Mab sees some benefit to an alliance between Winter and the White Court. (This isn't the secret.) Somehow, I don’t think the White Council will be happy about this.  Related to this, there is an old secret Harry has kept; he knows the weakness of the White Court of Vampires.  Harry knows that Lara and every other member of the White Court (or at least House Raith) can’t feed on him; for the time being, because of his love protection. 

My feeling is this information was something Thomas told Harry in confidence.  It’s not something Harry should tell the White Council, not that they want to talk to him anyway.   Even if Harry did tell anyone on the Council, they wouldn’t believe him.  I have to admit I would like to see Harry try to explain to Eb or Carlos why Lara isn't a threat to him, especially if the arranged marriage between Harry and Lara takes place.

3.  Harry met the third Walker, HWWBsd and he knows that the Walker has possessed Justine and has done so for some time.  I thought it was interesting that Lara understood this.  She didn’t want to say the name Nemesis out loud so she’s fully clued in.  I wonder how Lara found out.  Did Harry tell her or had she known for years?  I figure Lara knew about HWWB from listening in to the encounter Harry had with her father in Blood Rites, but I don’t think the Walker’s name was said out loud.
 
The problem with this information is there is no useful way to convey it to the Swartalfs.  Harry doesn’t know if Etri knows about Nemesis and the Walkers, and even if Etri does know, Harry doesn’t have any proof he could offer in order to get the Swartalfs  to back off Thomas, assuming Thomas gets freed from Demonreach anytime soon and assuming Etri would see it as a valid reason to back off.

4.  Harry has learned that the Redcap works for Mab.  As a side note, the Redcap’s a more interesting character now, he's no longer a two-dimensional bad guy.  While I expect Harry to warn Molly at some point, my guess is that after being trained by Lea and having seen how Mab works, Molly already knows.

5. Harry knows that Listen and Drakul are also Starborn.  Maybe that's important, maybe not.  Maybe Harry can figure out a way to feed Listen to Drakul.  Drakul likes to eat Starborn.   

6. The Stars and Stones. No one seems to want to clue Harry in on what that expression means.  Outside of asking Bonea; which would probably be a really stupid and dangerous thing to do, there isn't much Harry can do with this information.  Then again, now that Harry is out of the Council where else can he go to find out?  Sooner or later Harry is going to have to tap into the well of knowledge that Bonea possesses.  Perhaps Harry will think that is the only way he can find out.  Unless, Harry can find out what Stars and Stones means in the Mirror Mirror universe.

7.  The Librarians.  OK, the bigwigs in the supernatural world know about them, but Harry had never heard of them before.  (Unless they were mentioned in a short story.  Harry briefly tangled with some men in black in one of the short stories.)  Sooner or later, Harry's going to have to meet with one or more of the Librarians.  Maybe they'll talk about the Dewey Decimal system.  Probably not.   

8.  Harry's a wolf.  Not really a secret, a lot of people call Harry a wolf.  Ebenezer, The Erlking, Mab; I mean you'd think the Alphas would be jealous seeing as they really become wolves.  I'm looking forward to see Harry howl at the moon or do some other wolf like things.
     

[Arjan]

"While here we wait, O hunter of the shadows! We who yearn for your shadow to fall upon our enemy! We who cry out in need for thy strength, O Lord of Slowest Terror! May your right arm come to us! Send unto us your captain of destruction! Mastercraftsman of death! Let now our need become the traveler's road, the vessel for He Who Walks Behind!"

Lara heard and she has access to all information she can wrangle out of her father. No way to tell how much she knows though.

[Arjan]

Harry should probably consult Michael about the Namshiel issue but Harry is a wizard. I think he will hoard the information as Marcone very well knows.

He did not shout out information during the meeting. He only spread doubt.

[Arjan]

Mab might know about Namshiel but she can not break her bonds with Marcone that easily, it would make a bad impression and would harm the accords and she first have to find out who is in charge at this moment. Ultimately it would be Namshiel but that might take some time and the apocalypse might be first.

From skin game it is clear she knows that Anduriel is more important than Nic.

But she is already taken measures. Closer ties to the white court and siding with her knight against Marcone during the meeting. Compare the interaction between them during Skin Game and in Battle Ground.

[TheCuriousFan]

3.  Harry met the third Walker, HWWBsd and he knows that the Walker has possessed Justine and done so for some time.  I thought it was interesting that Lara understood this.  She didn’t want to say the name Nemesis out loud so she’s fully clued in.  I wonder how Lara found out.  Did Harry tell her or had she known for years?  I figure Lara knew about HWWB from listening in to the encounter Harry had with her father in Blood Rites, but I don’t think the Walker’s name was said out loud.
 
The problem with this information is there is no useful way to convey it to the Swartalfs.  Harry doesn’t know if Etri knows about Nemesis and the Walkers, and even if Etri does know, Harry doesn’t have any proof he could offer in order to get the Swartalfs  to back off Thomas, assuming Thomas gets freed from Demonreach anytime soon and assuming Etri would see it as a valid reason to back off.

It probably got explained off-screen in the leadup to the meeting at the end of the book since Evanna did a 180 in terms of attitude, going from glaring at him constantly to helping him corner Marcone.

[Arjan]

The really old guys all know something about it because they have gone through it before. The svartalf leaders might be that old.

[TheCuriousFan]

The really old guys all know something about it because they have gone through it before. The svartalf leaders might be that old.

Etri is clued in to some extent, and if he's the same Etri that made Mjolnir he's been around the block for a while.

It meant that the Last Titan was in league with the Outsiders.

It meant that more than a few powerful entities had evidently decided that the Accorded nations had to go, and they were making their intentions known in no uncertain terms.

Not everyone in the room got what was happening, but I could see who had the information to translate what Mab had said, very clearly. One-Eye and Ferrovax, the Senior Council, River Shoulders, Etri, and a few others suddenly went as pale as I felt. They understood just as well as I did what would happen if that battle was lost.

[bigdangmoose]

Couple thoughts on this. It seems that a lot of people here believe Marcone to be taken over. After reading Even Hand, I really don't think he will. Marcone knows lawyer talk. He is a meticulous, intelligent, and cunning mind. I am of the opinion that he's of the same stuff as Harry and will keep control.

And as far the KotC going after him. Until Marcone does something to make them take notice, like use the coin to get his way in mundane situations, I think the Knights don't have a reason to interfere.

I do like Jim's smack down of all the people who believed Marcone to take up the last sword. It's not a complete no it can't happen, but if Marcone chose to pick up the coin and wasn't seduced or tricked like Sanya, I don't think he's a candidate anymore.

[Bacail]

Mab knows, so does Lara and Odin.  Harry called Marcone "Sir Baron" at that meeting at the end.  Mab lights up saying that explains a lot.  Leverage to get the castle.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The way Stars and Stones was used made me think of Stonehenge, which was used for astronomical purposes. Perhaps something like that is a Stone Table for Starborn.

[vincentric]

The way Stars and Stones was used made me think of Stonehenge, which was used for astronomical purposes. Perhaps something like that is a Stone Table for Starborn.

Stars and Stones is probably a Biblical reference. It was hinted at in CD when Harry caught the cracked jar with the name Wormwood. Wormwood falling from the heavens in the form of a disease carrying asteroid would be a disaster on the right scale for the second act of the BAT.

[Arjan]

Couple thoughts on this. It seems that a lot of people here believe Marcone to be taken over. After reading Even Hand, I really don't think he will. Marcone knows lawyer talk. He is a meticulous, intelligent, and cunning mind. I am of the opinion that he's of the same stuff as Harry and will keep control.

Harry never took the coin, he had the shadow and one of the reasons he could resist that temptation is that he could change the shadow as well.
The other reason was that he ultimately did not want the coin.

Marcone has the coin. He accepted it with his free will. He wants to keep it. Theoretically he can resist it but practically that will be not that likely. It will become more and more difficult and he will grow dependent on it. The coin will influence him and he will I’ll. e changed as a result. No big change at once but after some time his goals will align with the fallen and he will be their tool. This can take some time but the idea that Harry could take up Lasciel’s coin and stay in control for 500 years is not very likely. It is just a matter of time. Only throwing away the coin will reverse this process.


[/quote]
And as far the KotC going after him. Until Marcone does something to make them take notice, like use the coin to get his way in mundane situations, I think the Knights don't have a reason to interfere.
[/quote]
They need a reason for that. They did not go after Harry when he had the coin.

I do like Jim's smack down of all the people who believed Marcone to take up the last sword. It's not a complete no it can't happen, but if Marcone chose to pick up the coin and wasn't seduced or tricked like Sanya, I don't think he's a candidate anymore.

[Griffyn612]

Another name for this thread was:
Battle Ground secrets - What should Harry do about them

1.  Of course, the big reveal was that Marcone is now a Knight of the Blackened Denarius.  I suppose if Butters or Sanya need to know this, their boss will point them at Marcone.  However, it seems rude for Harry to keep this knowledge to himself, especially as Butters and Sanya are friends, not someone he would have to trade favor for favor with.  Plus, it wasn’t information Harry learned in confidence, Harry doesn’t owe Marcone anything. 

You’d think Lara Raith would like to know about this, seeing that her and Marcone are rivals even if they are not outright enemies.  If Harry; as a representative of Winter, is supposed to play nice with the White Court of Vampires, it might be a piece of information he should be willing to trade with Lara, if not tell her outright.
 
Mab really, really doesn’t like Thorned Namshiel.  She knows a lot, but I wonder if she knows who Marcone’s new friend is.  All Harry would have to say to Mab is “I know who holds Thorned Namshiel’s coin” to see if Mab is interested.  She may already know, but if Mab didn’t know it would be nice trading chip for Harry to have.
   
2.  Mab sees some benefit to an alliance between Winter and the White Court. (This isn't the secret.) Somehow, I don’t think the White Council will be happy about this.  Related to this, there is an old secret Harry has kept; he knows the weakness of the White Court of Vampires.  Harry knows that Lara and every other member of the White Court (or at least House Raith) can’t feed on him; for the time being, because of his love protection. 

My feeling is this information was something Thomas told Harry in confidence.  It’s not something Harry should tell the White Council, not that they want to talk to him anyway.   Even if Harry did tell anyone on the Council, they wouldn’t believe him.  I have to admit I would like to see Harry try to explain to Eb or Carlos why Lara isn't a threat to him, especially if the arranged marriage between Harry and Lara takes place.

3.  Harry met the third Walker, HWWBsd and he knows that the Walker has possessed Justine and has done so for some time.  I thought it was interesting that Lara understood this.  She didn’t want to say the name Nemesis out loud so she’s fully clued in.  I wonder how Lara found out.  Did Harry tell her or had she known for years?  I figure Lara knew about HWWB from listening in to the encounter Harry had with her father in Blood Rites, but I don’t think the Walker’s name was said out loud.
 
The problem with this information is there is no useful way to convey it to the Swartalfs.  Harry doesn’t know if Etri knows about Nemesis and the Walkers, and even if Etri does know, Harry doesn’t have any proof he could offer in order to get the Swartalfs  to back off Thomas, assuming Thomas gets freed from Demonreach anytime soon and assuming Etri would see it as a valid reason to back off.

4.  Harry has learned that the Redcap works for Mab.  As a side note, the Redcap’s a more interesting character now, he's no longer a two-dimensional bad guy.  While I expect Harry to warn Molly at some point, my guess is that after being trained by Lea and having seen how Mab works, Molly already knows.

5. Harry knows that Listen and Drakul are also Starborn.  Maybe that's important, maybe not.  Maybe Harry can figure out a way to feed Listen to Drakul.  Drakul likes to eat Starborn.   

6. The Stars and Stones. No one seems to want to clue Harry in on what that expression means.  Outside of asking Bonea; which would probably be a really stupid and dangerous thing to do, there isn't much Harry can do with this information.  Then again, now that Harry is out of the Council where else can he go to find out?  Sooner or later Harry is going to have to tap into the well of knowledge that Bonea possesses.  Perhaps Harry will think that is the only way he can find out.  Unless, Harry can find out what Stars and Stones means in the Mirror Mirror universe.

7.  The Librarians.  OK, the bigwigs in the supernatural world know about them, but Harry had never heard of them before.  (Unless they were mentioned in a short story.  Harry briefly tangled with some men in black in one of the short stories.)  Sooner or later, Harry's going to have to meet with one or more of the Librarians.  Maybe they'll talk about the Dewey Decimal system.  Probably not.   

8.  Harry's a wolf.  Not really a secret, a lot of people call Harry a wolf.  Ebenezer, The Erlking, Mab; I mean you'd think the Alphas would be jealous seeing as they really become wolves.  I'm looking forward to see Harry howl at the moon or do some other wolf like things.
   

[1] Honestly, I want to know what Gard thinks of Hendricks dying to protect a man that didn't need the protection.

[2] I imagine any marriage would require it be consummated, which would end with the protection he's afforded ending one way or another. And I'm pretty sure others have sussed out the secret over the years. Hell, the blackstaff wasa secret title, but Carlos didn't seem to surprised to hear about it when it was mentioned in BG. Things get out.

[3] Seeing as Lara's people picked him up, he probably had to explain things. There was probably an off-screen info dump. And let's not forget that Lord Raith knew how to summon Behind, so Lara learning about another Walker wouldn't be big news.

[4] I don't really like or care about Redcap, but he's a pretty bad unseelie. Becoming buds will look very bad for Harry.

[5] I'll need to revisit everything about Listen. He just went from recurring lackey to Big News.

[6] I always thought the stone table was tied to the phrase, and the mention of sacrificing him to the stones (and stars) makes my think Power Transfer!!! Because honestly, the stone table could possibly imitate celestial events to enable true death sacrifice. It might be how the queens made the battle above Chicago a true death event. And if there are more such stones out there...

[7] I'm interested to see what they do and what they're capable of. What tricks do they have? Is the Archive secretly affiliated with them?  Do they mostly do acquisitions of things or do they face supernatural threats?

[8] I figure he'll end up with at least three forms, right? Ground, flight, swimming.  So wolf, and eagle or owl, and something fast to swim back and forth to the island. Hopefully not a bull shark.

[morriswalters]

Mab really, really doesn’t like Thorned Namshiel.  She knows a lot, but I wonder if she knows who Marcone’s new friend is.  All Harry would have to say to Mab is “I know who holds Thorned Namshiel’s coin” to see if Mab is interested.  She may already know, but if Mab didn’t know it would be nice trading chip for Harry to have.

She may not know which, but she knows what.  Harry told her and everyone else, discretely.

“Prove it,” I said. “Sir Baron.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 385). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I have to admit I would like to see Harry try to explain to Eb or Carlos why Lara isn't a threat to him, especially if the arranged marriage between Harry and Lara takes place.

I'm pretty sure Eb and the White Council know. If they didn't they're idiots. Of course Jim could write it that way. And Harry would be an idiot if he thought that protection was worth anything.

8.  Harry's a wolf.  Not really a secret, a lot of people call Harry a wolf.  Ebenezer, The Erlking, Mab; I mean you'd think the Alphas would be jealous seeing as they really become wolves.  I'm looking forward to see Harry howl at the moon or do some other wolf like things.

You've already seen this. Know his pack by the corpses left in their tracks.

[Arjan]

She may not know which, but she knows what.  Harry told her and everyone else, discretely.I'm pretty sure Eb and the White Council know. If they didn't they're idiots. Of course Jim could write it that way. And Harry would be an idiot if he thought that protection was worth anything.You've already seen this. Know his pack by the corpses left in their tracks.

I am not sure about what Ebenezer knows. Of course he has a lot of secrets and experience but he really has no idea how Mab works and why it is important. I doubt he knows much about winters purpose and he could not be a bit polite with the svartalves which is stupid.

I expect them to know nothing until after the wedding and maybe Eb will come with unrealistic and impossible demands.