Did Mab break her word to Harry in Battle Ground?

[cbarrett76]

Battle Ground spoliers below:


So Mab basically tells Harry that if she falls in the battle her final order to him would be to kill Molly because she worries what kind of "Mab"  Molly would be.  But when Harry took the mantle of winter knight, wasn't one of his conditions that Mab never order him to harm his friends or family?  Did she just give him an "out" for the Mantle if he wants to take it?  Am I missing something?

[vultur]

Yeah, I think this would be covered by that, but I don't think Mab swore not to give such orders, I think Harry made not having to accept such orders a condition of his becoming Winter Knight.

A tenuous distinction for a human, but I think it matters for the Fae... I think Mab literally couldn't have said it if she'd sworn not to.

[Thana†os]

in my PDF it's

Changes - pg 446

"...And you give me your word you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."

Thougn Mab never expressly agreed to it. But could be considered part of the agreement since it was noted as a condition of his acceptance.

It's all kinda murky with Fae.

[Yuillegan]

A lawyer might argue that the letter of that contract merely states Harry not "lift his hand" against "those he loves", both of which are too vague and also that killing Molly or "those he loves" doesn't necessarily require him to lift his hand. Dresden would be an awful lawyer.

[Thana†os]

yeah but a contract also requires a "meeting of the minds" in order to be consider valid, e.g. Mab knew exactly what he meant, his intent and went with it anyway.

Still, we're not talking Magical Law...and Fae are masters at twisting it all to suit them.

But in any event, Mab knows that Harry is his own person and he will not go quietly into the night if she gives him an order like that. Still, for her to tell him to do it, you know there are some possibly dire consequences...

But lets hope by the end of things, Harry can untangle himself and Molly out of Winter's grasp.

[vultur]

in my PDF it's

Changes - pg 446

"...And you give me your word you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."

Thougn Mab never expressly agreed to it. But could be considered part of the agreement since it was noted as a condition of his acceptance.

Hmm. So I wonder how she could say that at all. "The stars shall fall from the sky when Mab keeps not her word" IIRC.

Possibly there is some trick involving it being a conditional order - "Should I fall". IE it's not really an order until Mab is dead, and therefore breaking her word is impossible/irrelevant?

[Thana†os]

That's actually a good point.

Plus, I wonder if the order of a dead queen is still binding...

and it could also have been more of a dire warning than an actual order. By ordering it, Mab is putting it in Harry's head and knows that he is going to look into the reason for her order.

[forumghost]

Or it could be that it would have counted as that Favour Harry still owes her, and is not covered by his conditions for accepting the position of Winter Knight.

Harry is bad at this thinking stuff. He should concentrate on making things a'splode.

[Mira]

   Perhaps she is arguing for the greater good, should she fall, Molly isn't ready to be Queen, bad stuff will happen.  But why couldn't Molly acknowledge that and step aside and let the mantle go to Lea?

[Dragen3]

Harry said that if Mab forced him (I.E. Geas like why Fix and Lilly could not choose to help Dresden directly) to follow an order he would follow her order but would be maliciously compliant requiring her direct supervision at all times and become practically useless to her.

Which is not quite the same as convincing her to make a binding promise not to give orders of that nature.

I am guessing that the way Titania bound Lilly and Fix works a lot like the Winter Law Voice thing Molly used on the Driver. Presumably it is the sort of thing that has to be  intentional and protection from that sort of thing is effectively what Dresden received with his mediocre knight threat.

What Mab says to Dresden in Battle Grounds has the option of being ignored by Dreaden, hence the "... you would be wise to follow" part of her statement.

Either she is not trying to magically bind him for some reason (could be respect of Dresden or honoring her implied agreement to not order him to raise his hand against those he loved) or she can not bind him to her will in this case (either she knows any binding will not survive her death or she actually can not because the forces that control Fae interactions recognized Dresden Terms for being her Knight as spirtually binding). Although it is possible their is something else going on there that I do not have enough pieces to put together.

However I do not think Mab broke her word to Dresden with the commentary about Killing Molly Carpenter. However I do think she may have damaged some of the feelings of actual loyalty and trust that he seems to be developing, although considering she is almost certainly aware of the possibility of damaging his respect for her with that exchange it does suggest something about how bad she thinks it could get if Molly became the Queen.

[Mira]

However I do not think Mab broke her word to Dresden with the commentary about Killing Molly Carpenter. However I do think she may have damaged some of the feelings of actual loyalty and trust that he seems to be developing, although considering she is almost certainly aware of the possibility of damaging his respect for her with that exchange it does suggest something about how bad she thinks it could get if Molly became the Queen.

But if Mab is dead, is Harry still obligated to follow her order?  He is also bound to Molly, she would then be his Queen.

[Arjan]

But if Mab is dead, is Harry still obligated to follow her order?  He is also bound to Molly, she would then be his Queen.

Was it an order? What is the exact wording?

And also if Harry just let it know to Molly she can give a counter order and nobody can do a thing about it.

[cbarrett76]

The exact wording is "Should I fall, I have one last command you would be wise to fulfill.  Kill Molly Carpenter.  As quickly as possible."  Harry asks why and Mab explains "As Winter Lady she shows promise.  But she is not ready to become Mab.  The consequences would be unsettling....for both of you.  Perhaps for all of winter"

To me this goes in direct violation to the deal where Harry said "And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love"

In one statement you have at least the implied agreement from Mab that she would never command Harry to harm those he loves otherwise he would not have accepted the mantle.  In the other statement she is commanding him to kill someone he loves.

[BrainFireBob]

She didn't give it. She told him it existed and he'd be wise to do it, but that's it.

If she'd given it, he'd have to do it. Fits the letter of their agreement.

[Griffyn612]

There's an argument to be made that Molly becoming Mab would make her no longer the person he loved.  She also seems to imply in her statement that it's something he woudn't *have* to do.  "You would be wise to fulfill" is usually a threat, but it's also more of a heavy recommendation than an outright escapable command.