What's the deal with the horrible communication skills?

[Hankthemoose]

I don't get why Harry doesn't tell Ramirez anything. Specifically, I don't get why he tells him NOTHING AT ALL.

He reasons that he can't tell him about Thomas, and therefore says nothing. Well. A normal human would just leave that part out, instead of clamming up. His refusal to say anything at all breaks the suspension of disbelief, and was super bad writing imo.

As a few examples, he could have done things like...
Appeal to authority - "The Blackstaff knows my secrets, and why I can't share them. Take it up with him."
Appeal to emotion - "Information is dangerous, and I'm trying to protect you and other people I care about."
Explain a different problem - "The WC is compromised, and I don't know if the wardens are involved."
Scoff - "The WC has been trying to kill me from day 1. I didn't expect you to become Morgan the moment they wound up the pressure on me again.

A couple of those sound very much like stuff Harry would actually say, especially that last one. The way he did respond was a bit weird, but worse, it was boring and not believable.

[Thana†os]

Yeah, I'm with you 100%

I don't get why he didn't say ANYTHING at all.

But people also seem to be irrational towards him too.

I'm like - you know, you could get this resolved with a 30 minute conversation over a cup of coffee...

Drama for Drama's Sake...

[Mira]

   I think there isn't a whole lot Harry can say to Carlos at this point as long as he is Winter Knight.
I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well.  I realize he is a Warden and his duty is to enforce what the Senior Council rules, but he seemed to have drunk the whole glass of kool aid as well.  Does he really think Harry is a monster?  Does he really think it is Harry's fault that his fellow Wardens were killed or worse by the Black Court?

Do you honestly think confessing to Carlos that Thomas was his brother would help?  Or would Carlos have the same attitude as Eb?  Or more to the point if this did get around that his half brother was a vampire, the Council would be even more against him.

Appeal to authority - "The Blackstaff knows my secrets, and why I can't share them. Take it up with him."

Except Eb doesn't share them, so in the end he might make it worse not just for Carlos but Eb as well.

"The WC is compromised, and I don't know if the wardens are involved."

That wouldn't get him very far, especially if Carlos already didn't trust him.

"The WC has been trying to kill me from day 1. I didn't expect you to become Morgan the moment they wound up the pressure on me again.

Except Carlos seems perfectly willing to become Morgan, that is the problem.. Harry is back to being under the Doom.

[Hankthemoose]

   I think there isn't a whole lot Harry can say to Carlos at this point as long as he is Winter Knight.
I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well.  I realize he is a Warden and his duty is to enforce what the Senior Council rules, but he seemed to have drunk the whole glass of kool aid as well.  Does he really think Harry is a monster?  Does he really think it is Harry's fault that his fellow Wardens were killed or worse by the Black Court?

Do you honestly think confessing to Carlos that Thomas was his brother would help?  Or would Carlos have the same attitude as Eb?  Or more to the point if this did get around that his half brother was a vampire, the Council would be even more against him.Except Eb doesn't share them, so in the end he might make it worse not just for Carlos but Eb as well.That wouldn't get him very far, especially if Carlos already didn't trust him.Except Carlos seems perfectly willing to become Morgan, that is the problem.. Harry is back to being under the Doom.

Carlos' state of mind, and his eventual response to what Harry says isn't really that important. What isn't believable is that Harry wouldn't say anything, regardless how Ramirez deals with it. Harry isn't a calculating creature, he is supposed to wear his heart on his sleeve, saying what's on his mind and fuck the consequences. Trying to either resolve the issue, or just lash out both make sense. Saying "You're gonna feel dumb later" rings totally hollow and bad faith when following absolutely no attempt to explain anything.

The point isn't that the plot would change in any way. The point is that the dialogue is lame and breaks character.

[riff.freelance]

I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?

I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.

[Arjan]

I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?

I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.

Molly happened

[Hankthemoose]

Mostly I think the thing with both Carlos and Eb are just to build tension that can be dramatically resolved in a critical reversal, ultimately resulting in Harry getting them both for his new Chicago troubleshooting organization.

[Mira]

I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?

I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.

I think all of his views of Winter are colored by that experience with Molly.  He didn't seem to have problems before hand.

I am struck by what Mab said about the Council being sheep afraid of having a wolf in their mist, but at the same time they are going to need that wolf.  I don't think the split will last all that long.  I go back to what Rashid told him in Turn Coat paraphrasing, "now is not your time to confront the Council."  There is going to be another crisis, maybe a trial, and Harry is going to have to lay it on the line to the Council.

[Rigil Kent]

Harry isn't aware of what transpired between Carlos and Molly though, is he? So I think there's some miscommunication on both sides as I believe Carlos thinks Harry does know what happened.

In Harry's defense, he's always sucked at communication and not explaining oneself? It's like Wizard crack, remember?

[riff.freelance]

Harry isn't aware of what transpired between Carlos and Molly though, is he? So I think there's some miscommunication on both sides as I believe Carlos thinks Harry does know what happened.

This was kinda where I was going... mentally at least.  I do hope we get something resolved re: the Council sooner than later.

[Rigil Kent]

Well, I do kind of like the idea of the White Council in general thinking they're looking at the rise of a new Kemmler due to Harry's actions and miscommunication because, if nothing else, it makes his life ridiculously difficult.

[Arjan]

This was kinda where I was going... mentally at least.  I do hope we get something resolved re: the Council sooner than later.

Not when they hear about the wedding

[Rigil Kent]

Not when they hear about the wedding

Especially Eb considering his issues with Whampires...

[BrainFireBob]

Every conversation Harry has with Carlos after he's injured reads very differently if you read it where Carlos assumes Harry knows what happened with Molly.

They don't have a conversation where Harry doesn't threaten him with Molly, as I recall- I thought it heavy-handed. It's always at that point that Carlos twitches.

Harry is assuming that Carlos is such a straight-arrow that he'd feel obligated to report everything- so anything he tells Carlos isn't necessarily confidential.

Carlos assumes Harry knows about Molly, and is always threatening him casually. Also, from a Warden perspective- and Harry has been a Warden until being kicked out this book!- how rough has the war with the Fomor been? And Harry casually raises an army of Little Folk, brings in Bigfoot as backup, slaps Drakul a bit, mashes a couple of Eldar black court vampires, and finally brings down Ethniu.

Harry admires how Carlos can throw such low-energy punches endlessly, because Harry's swing-for-the-fences approach is exhausting. Now see it from Carlos's perspective: Harry can punch like Ebenezer, again and again and again and again. Why the hell didn't he take it to the Fomor? It's the Red Court all over again. Harry casually starts a war, the White Council bleeds for it, the Red Court goes after Harry personally and he annihilates them. From a distance, that's what it looks like- Harry's been holding back.

[vultur]

I go back to what Rashid told him in Turn Coat paraphrasing, "now is not your time to confront the Council."

Yeah this book I think starts to show how that confrontation can happen and Harry have a chance.

Harry as an isolated rebel is one thing. Harry as a member of the Winter Court and close ally (or sort-of member?) of the White Court and Warden of Demonreach is something quite different.