Rudolph's evidence doesn't make sense

[BrainFireBob]

Is he though?  And that wouldn't necessarily mean just because he is a wizard he can or would control the Mantel.

I have absolutely no idea what you are responding to with the second half of that. I simply noted he may be the first wizard knight as a possibility. Mab would be excited to see the new features of the mantle.

[Mira]

I have absolutely no idea what you are responding to with the second half of that. I simply noted he may be the first wizard knight as a possibility. Mab would be excited to see the new features of the mantle.

All I am saying is since we don't have a list of all the Winter Knights, we don't know if there were any other wizard Knights.  I am not sure if it is that or the fact that Harry has a strong will, isn't dumb, had the advantage of seeing what happens when the Knight cannot control his mantle or gives into it's temptations. What he figured out was long hard exercise counteracted the adrenaline testosterone rush from the mantle that triggered overly violent reactions to stimuli.  He still has a ways to go as far as being self aware of his body, important because the mantel numbs pain. 

[Bad Alias]

Then you have homicide investigate..  Harry and Murphy are civilians.  IA is for in house investigations pertaining to police misconduct, plus one of the investigating officers doesn't even know why they are there.

I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with my point. I'm not saying that IA should be investigating. IA is investigating. The investigation was directed there through legitimate channels, otherwise Bradley wouldn't be there. That IA is investigating lets us know that it's corrupt motives. Bradley let's us know it's a real investigation with potentially real consequences.

The problem with getting a criminal lawyer au fait with the supernatural world is that they are all Whamps, and Malvora and Skavi’s to boot. ...

Diamonds from what crime? ...

Why would the Government take them?

Mab's a lawyer. Her rates are probably too high. Harry knows for a fact that there is at least one human lawyer in Chicago familiar with criminal law and at least the existence of the supernatural. Unfortunately, she's a judge.

Any of the crimes I've listed.

I've got three words for you, civil asset forfeiture.

the Government wouldshould scratch their head and conclude they are heirlooms.

Kinda normative vs. descriptive.

[forumghost]

I know that this is probably too good of a thing for Harry and Murph to be the actual reason... but what if it's been handed off to IA because the real IA investigation is into Rudolph, who is at this stage quite obviously dirty, and they're using this investigation to give him the rope needed to hang himself.

[morriswalters]

Harry committed 2 crimes, at least in Chicago.  Breaking and entering and felony murder.  Harry and everybody involved in the robbery. The accountant is the least of their worries. When the guard was killed, their fate was sealed, if the police connect the dots.

“A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death…he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder.” – 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a)(3)

Murphy wasn't at the robbery and so committed no crime, she was in a  hospital.  Neither can they place her at the scene when the accountant was killed, because again, she wasn't there.

“Grey, Deirdre, and Dresden will run this particular errand,” he said, “while the rest of us busy ourselves here.”

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 113). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

So unless you can be criminally charged for being maimed, f**k IA! No DNA for Murphy at either location either since, well, she wasn't there to leave it.

Having the diamonds isn't a crime, since they weren't stolen in this Universe.  And to confiscate them they would first need to know about them.  Harry has a vault supreme and it would be a slick piece of writing to have Rudy obtain a search warrant on Demonreach since first, it isn't on any map and second it isn't in Chicago.  Murphy could bury them in her garden or her underwear drawer. Since the cops can't possibly have a robbery report from Hades, exactly what would the search warrant be for?

[Mira]

Harry committed 2 crimes, at least in Chicago.  Breaking and entering and felony murder.  Harry and everybody involved in the robbery. The accountant is the least of their worries. When the guard was killed, their fate was sealed, if the police connect the dots.
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Then homicide investigates, not IA.  IA can be kept quiet, covered up, and used for blackmail, it is a in house investigation, no one was working for the police department at the time..  Homicide investigations lead to grand juries, indictments, charges, arrests, public trials, prison sentences or acquittal, no real use to Rudy.

Murphy wasn't at the robbery and so committed no crime, she was in a  hospital.  Neither can they place her at the scene when the accountant was killed, because again, she wasn't there.

Again, that's the whole point, she is the only one that ever was a policeman, but she hasn't been for a number of years..  So it doesn't make any sense does it?   Especially since Rudy's partner was totally clueless as to why their department was doing the investigation..  Harry and Murphy weren't even part of the police department when all this supposedly happened in the first place.

[morriswalters]

I agree about IA, but that is more a jurisdictional thing. Otherwise a cop is a cop is a cop.

But this is Jim writing horseshit.

Karrin snorted. “We were there, and we’re lying to the police about it. That would get us put away for a while all by itself. But our DNA was at the scene, and they might turn up eyewitnesses who saw us on the street or find more images from a camera somewhere. Or . . .” “Or someone could make some more evidence happen,” I said.

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 49). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

I agree about IA, but that is more a jurisdictional thing. Otherwise a cop is a cop is a cop.

But this is Jim writing horseshit.

  I agree, it does seem like horseshit, unless it is laying down the groundwork for black mail at some point in Battle Ground or in some other future book.  While it is true, a cop is a cop, if a former cop does wrong, internal affairs isn't meant to investigate the now civilian cop, because they investigate wrong doing with in the force.  It is like being an Army veteran living as a civilian for the last ten years, not even a reserve.  You are suspected of committing a crime that has nothing what so ever to do with the Army.. Yet because you are a veteran, the Army decides to do a court marshal investigation of you because you were Army once.. 

[Bad Alias]

I'd like to remind everyone that I'm primarily arguing that Harry and Murphy shouldn't talk to the cops about February of whatever year SG takes place, much less tell Tilly everything that happened. Whether or not they are guilty, that's a good idea. I'm saying this because I believe any decent lawyer could put them into a world of hurt for what they did.

Murphy wasn't at the robbery and so committed no crime, she was in a  hospital.

I'm not a criminal lawyer in Chicago, but a decent prosecutor could get her on some theory of accomplice liability and/or criminal conspiracy. Murphy was part of the criminal conspiracy.

Murphy wasn't at the robbery and so committed no crime, she was in a  hospital.

She loaded all the magazines for the submachine guns. Unless she wore gloves, her fingerprints and possibly DNA are there. Of course, loading magazines isn't a crime. That alone probably isn't enough for a conviction. It is enough for the cops to connect her and investigate.

Having the diamonds isn't a crime, since they weren't stolen in this Universe.

I'm just going to leave a left wing link about civil asset forfeiture abuse: https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse, and a right wing one: https://www.cato.org/events/policing-profit-abuse-civil-asset-forfeiture.

And to confiscate them they would first need to know about them.  Harry has a vault supreme and it would be a slick piece of writing to have Rudy obtain a search warrant on Demonreach since first, it isn't on any map and second it isn't in Chicago.

That's why you gotta move the diamonds and hire a lawyer before the indictment comes down.

@Mira: It doesn't matter one lick which department investigated you when they find evidence of the crime.

It is like being an Army veteran living as a civilian for the last ten years, not even a reserve.  You are suspected of committing a crime that has nothing what so ever to do with the Army.. Yet because you are a veteran, the Army decides to do a court marshal investigation of you because you were Army once. 

It is almost nothing like that. IA and Homicide are departments of a municipal agency. They have the exact same jurisdiction. They just have different briefs. The Army can only prosecute those in the military. The DoJ basically has global jurisdiction with limited subject matter jurisdiction.

It's more like the FBI Cyber Crime guys investigating a civil rights violation. So what? It's weird and all, but it doesn't make any legal difference. Once the investigation reaches a certain point, they're going to turn the case over to the same US Attorney's office for prosecution.

The point is to alert the reader to the weirdness.

[Mira]

  Oh but it does, you have to examine the motives for how the investigation was coming about.  Because if IA wants to, it can do it quietly and hush it all up, keep the infor for later and blackmail.. 

That's the point Jim was trying to make and why it was so weird to everyone concerned except for Rudy.  He was pulling a lot of the evidence out of his rear end.

[morriswalters]

@Bad Alias
I understand civil forfeiture.  I'm a liberal. But you can't seize what you can't find. And since they don't exist from a law enforcement perspective they don't even know to look.

I understand that she could have left prints, but not DNA. But her prints would have been on file and it wouldn't take three months, and they wouldn't have needed the pictures.  The same for Harry, since he is a licensed PI in Chicago.  This was a capital crime, felony murder.

[Bad Alias]

If they have you under surveillance for knocking over a (probably) known mob bank, and chronically poor Harry makes a trip to a diamond merchant, questions will be asked. I'm just saying get an attorney before the heat is on.

With the amount of rounds she loaded, I would be surprised but not shocked if she left some DNA behind.

[Mira]

If they have you under surveillance for knocking over a (probably) known mob bank, and chronically poor Harry makes a trip to a diamond merchant, questions will be asked. I'm just saying get an attorney before the heat is on.

With the amount of rounds she loaded, I would be surprised but not shocked if she left some DNA behind.

As morriswalters says, if they really had that kind of evidence what would be the point of further surveillance?  No need for further investigation, especially by IA, they would have just arrested them.  That didn't happen.

[Bad Alias]

As morriswalters says, if they really had that kind of evidence what would be the point of further surveillance?  No need for further investigation, especially by IA, they would have just arrested them.  That didn't happen.

Because a prosecutor would want more evidence before proceeding to trial. And Murphy might not be the big fish they're after. Let's say they have enough to arrest Murphy, but know she won't be easy to flip. What they really want is to get everyone involved all at once. So surveillance. They also might not have Murphy's DNA on file, so they'd have to have enough for a warrant to get her DNA before they'd have enough for an arrest warrant. Or they didn't test the cases for DNA. If the cops figure out that Murphy loaded hundreds of rounds, they might start looking.

[Mira]

Because a prosecutor would want more evidence before proceeding to trial. And Murphy might not be the big fish they're after. Let's say they have enough to arrest Murphy, but know she won't be easy to flip. What they really want is to get everyone involved all at once. So surveillance. They also might not have Murphy's DNA on file, so they'd have to have enough for a warrant to get her DNA before they'd have enough for an arrest warrant. Or they didn't test the cases for DNA. If the cops figure out that Murphy loaded hundreds of rounds, they might start looking.

Doesn't matter, if they have what Rudolph claimed, they had enough for an arrest warrant, still sounds like a set up for black mail, no more no less.