We Now Know What/Who Mac Is

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I still like her being killed by the falling giant she just killed with the RPG.

Perhaps we ought to set up the Murphy Dead Pool, all the ways she could die in Battle Ground.

How about “slips on the bowel movement involuntarily left by Rudy when he saw the Fomor, and breaks her neck”

[Mira]

I still like her being killed by the falling giant she just killed with the RPG.

Perhaps we ought to set up the Murphy Dead Pool, all the ways she could die in Battle Ground.

How about “slips on the bowel movement involuntarily left by Rudy when he saw the Fomor, and breaks her neck”

That is hard to top..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Or to bottom.

How about

“Dies from fractured skull caused by improperly fixed Placard falling on her”

Or

“dies from strangulation by catching a cord holding an improvised explosive device around her neck on a projection.”

Literally hoist by her own petard.

[Arjan]

Well, that would be going out in a real blaze of gory...

Of course not. She is safe with Mac. The placard also works against a nuclear blast. The rest of Chicago is not that lucky but Molly could evacuate the carpenters on time but now you understand why Murphy did not want to celebrate Christmas with the carpenters. The masquerade is safe though, everything was explained.

[Mira]

Of course not. She is safe with Mac. The placard also works against a nuclear blast. The rest of Chicago is not that lucky but Molly could evacuate the carpenters on time but now you understand why Murphy did not want to celebrate Christmas with the carpenters. The masquerade is safe though, everything was explained.

I know she is safe, you know she is safe, Harry knows she is safe, however does Murphy want to be safe?  You know how she is, she has her own ideas and likes to do things her way.   I will be shocked if she remains inside Mac's place even if she can do an important job by remaining there.  I look for her to go out into the battle, the trailer shows her doing that.  Though I have real problems with how that is shown unless she gets a instant healing somewhere.  She came up from a squat to activate that rocket launcher, not a wiggle, wobble, or sign of pain, if you've ever suffered even a minor knee problem you know how hard it is to do that... Yes, take the trailer with a grain of salt, but evidently she does leave the bar to join the fight, whether that is wise or not, we will have to see in the book.

Oh, and the Carpenters are perfectly safe, Harry states that early in Peace Talks.  They are safe from all supernatural threats, and thanks to Molly, mortal as well..   And none of that explains Murphy not being there for Harry at Christmas, especially if she knows how down he is emotionally.  Not if she still loves him in any way.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

McAnally’s, Demonreach and the Carpenters are all supernatural bomb shelters, each for their own reason and each can withstand the Eye of Balor. It is interesting that Harry has placed each of the three people he loves in each one of them.

The Placard is a superthreshold, it cant protect against mundane weapons, but someone within its protection could probably survive an energy attack like the eye of Balor, or a curse like a death curse or an entropy curse launched from outside, and would strip someone not invited by Mac of their power. Theoretically it may even render someone immortal killable like the Stone Table should they come in uninvited. That’s why I think it is also a trap for Ethnui, as well as a protection from her, should she pass the threshold without invitation, Harry might be able to kill her DED with the  Athame and her power siphoned off into Mac (it has to go somewhere, on the Table it goes to the Court holding it, on Halloween it goes to mortals. It would make sense it goes to the person empowering the Placard, and I don’t think Mac would explode, he could contain it).

[Mira]

McAnally’s, Demonreach and the Carpenters are all supernatural bomb shelters, each for their own reason and each can withstand the Eye of Balor. It is interesting that Harry has placed each of the three people he loves in each one of them.

I totally doubt that Harry would have placed Murphy at Mac's bar if she had been fit to fight.  To begin with she would have neutered him for suggesting it, then would have gone on to do her best to kick ass.  If he wanted her totally safe, as he said, he would have left her on the island. 

The Placard and Mac, now that is interesting, I am wondering if Harry hadn't realized that Mac knew what it was, and what he might be, if Harry hadn't intended for Murphy to smear her blood on the back of it.  Thus anyone trying to get in would have to go through her.  However that seems unlikely because at the end of the day she is still semi-incapacitated.  I was a bit shocked that she argued with Harry at all to go with him into battle.  He had to push her to Mac's in a shopping cart because he needed to move out quickly to get done what he needs to do.  As a warrior, and I argued this at the end of Peace Talks, she should know her limits, her arguments for going were not rational.. I especially thought her telling Harry he didn't want to her to go because that he feels she'd be a "distraction" to him, beneath her.

[Arjan]

I know she is safe, you know she is safe, Harry knows she is safe, however does Murphy want to be safe?  You know how she is, she has her own ideas and likes to do things her way.   I will be shocked if she remains inside Mac's place even if she can do an important job by remaining there.  I look for her to go out into the battle, the trailer shows her doing that.  Though I have real problems with how that is shown unless she gets a instant healing somewhere.  She came up from a squat to activate that rocket launcher, not a wiggle, wobble, or sign of pain, if you've ever suffered even a minor knee problem you know how hard it is to do that... Yes, take the trailer with a grain of salt, but evidently she does leave the bar to join the fight, whether that is wise or not, we will have to see in the book.

Oh, and the Carpenters are perfectly safe, Harry states that early in Peace Talks.  They are safe from all supernatural threats, and thanks to Molly, mortal as well..   And none of that explains Murphy not being there for Harry at Christmas, especially if she knows how down he is emotionally.  Not if she still loves him in any way.

She just destroyed Chicago with a nuclear bomb. She feels guilty and depressed and does not want to confront the carpenters and the angel squad. Harry needs to be with his daughter.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It has to be the owner of the building that activates the Placard, but kill them and the Placard is deactivated. Mundane force can still be used, so Harry whilst protecting Murphy from Supernatural harm is relying on Murphy to protect Mac (and those sheltering in the bar) from mundane force, no one better than that, and if it is a trap, for Ethnui she and the P60 is the metal teeth of the trap.

[Mira]

It has to be the owner of the building that activates the Placard, but kill them and the Placard is deactivated. Mundane force can still be used, so Harry whilst protecting Murphy from Supernatural harm is relying on Murphy to protect Mac (and those sheltering in the bar) from mundane force, no one better than that, and if it is a trap, for Ethnui she and the P60 is the metal teeth of the trap.

If that is true, it would be nice if she was in on it.. Doesn't sound like she is.

[Bad Alias]

If push comes to shove, Harry can give evidence of the events leading up to Harvey’s death and point the finger at Tessa, in the wake of Battle Ground, a Denarian culprit will be believable, when before it was not, remember Tilly has a minor practitioners gift, he knows when someone is lying or not. Harry can tell him the truth, be believed and not be institutionalised.

Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.

Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.

This or a pretty close approximation of it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.

As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank, there was some damage to the premises, but the owner is not eager to press charges, and indeed might be considered to be a conspirator.

The Bank Guard, again it may be considered that again this was not part of a common purpose, the other guards can testify that they were indeed moved to prevent their death or injury. Again their employer is not eager to see charges pressed, and again might be considered a conspirator.

This is why I believe Rudy isn’t working for Marcone, the evidence that Rudy has is circumstantial obtained from Traffic cameras. I bet the guards are saying that the perpetrators were all men of average height and nondescript appearance (which actually fits Grey and Nicky), all the internal cameras ceased to work, and there is evidence that Harvey was alive during the robbery, as he quite clearly accessed the retinal scanner during the robbery. If you can’t connect Harry to the robbery, it makes it difficult to pin Harvey’s death on Harry.

Someone is trying to find out what was stolen from Marcone’s bank and how it connects to Nicky’s public losses. This was in in Harry’s city, Marcone’s security is White Council proof, so the White Council resorted to money, bribing Rudy.

[Mira]

Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.

 Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene.  "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Bad Alias]

I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.

In 1973, the Illinois Supreme Court went with the proximate cause theory of liability for felony murder. Trying to stop the crime, one cop shot another in the back. The defendant was found guilty.

The bank job was the cause in fact for Harvey's death. Proximate cause is arguable. Therefore Harry's guilt under a felony murder theory of liability is arguable in that case. If I was trying to prosecute Harry, I'd argue the precedent is applicable because Tessa killed Harvey trying to stop the crime. If I was defending Harry, I'd try to distinguish the case because Tessa intended for Harvey to die whereas the cop accidentally killed the other cop.

That's all assuming the 1973 case is good law. I'm not going to shepardize it. I don't have a LexisNexis subscription.

Based on the facts, it's arguable whether Harry is criminally liable for the death of Harvey. I think the answer is probably yes.

The bank guard is a different story. Harry's guilty.

As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank.

I cut the quote there because I don't see how any of that is legally relevant. (I also don't think that Marcone hired Rudolph, so I'm not arguing with you there).

A death resulting from a act while "he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony" is guilty of murder.

"Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Emphasis added.

Burglary.
    (a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft.

Emphasis added.

Harry burgled the bank. He intended to kidnap the guards, maybe it was an aggravated kidnapping, therein. He intended to burgle Hades vault from the vault (good luck arguing that one to a jury).

Harry kidnapped guards.

Harry assaulted the guards with fireworks. Almost certainly assault with a deadly weapon.

His fireworks use could have been considered arson.

They took the guards handcuffs. That's robbery.

There are plenty of forcible felonies for prosecutors to hang their hats on.

The Illinois Supreme Court has ruled that if it is "contemplated that violence might be necessary to enable the conspirators to carry out their common purpose" then it's felony murder. Harry loaded the magazines. Harry knew he was working with sociopathic murderers. Harry knew how Marcone would respond based on what Justine observed in Even Hand. Harry knew he was going to use violence. Use of violence was more than complicated. Harry meets this requirement.

I have no question that Harry is guilty of felony murder in regards to the bank guard.

Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene.  "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

So you are unfamiliar with felony murder.

I said probably because I hadn't looked up the burglary statute. I was fairly certain Harry had committed burglary without having looked it up. Turns out I was right. It's not a question of fact. It's a question of law.

[ClintACK]

Unfortunately, yeah, Harry is guilty of felony-rule murder with respect to the security guard.

There probably isn't enough evidence to convict him of it, but he can't just tell Tilly everything and get out of it. He was indeed part of a bunch of felonies -- trespassing, breaking and entering, kidnapping, etc. And the death of a guard was a foreseeable consequence.

Of course, Harry's been committing actual crimes throughout the series. In Storm Front, *we* understand his violent assault on Marcone's restaurant -- in front of dozens of innocent bystander witnesses -- but there's no *legal* justification for it.

And it just gets worse from there. Imagine if there were evidence that he set the fire at Bianca's in Grave Peril. In Dead Beat, he commits grand theft dinosaur.

Working on a bank heist with legitimately evil folks... there's a reason Harry balked at that.