We Now Know What/Who Mac Is

[Bad Alias]

Working on a bank heist with legitimately evil folks.

I 100% agree with everything you said but this. Generally yes, but given the circumstances of the story, I'd more say fraught with moral peril. I don't think what Harry, Murphy, and Michael did was evil. I think there were moral justifications. It was an inherently dangerous enterprise that was very likely to cause serious harm to innocent bystanders. And it did.

[Arjan]

I 100% agree with everything you said but this. Generally yes, but given the circumstances of the story, I'd more say fraught with moral peril. I don't think what Harry, Murphy, and Michael did was evil. I think there were moral justifications. It was an inherently dangerous enterprise that was very likely to cause serious harm to innocent bystanders. And it did.

Good and evil is not the same as lawful and unlawful.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the and Harry therefore had authority to be there, no forcible felony burglary, and no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.

Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.

At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon,  is that a felony or misdemeanour.

Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.

The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times. The guards were  confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault)  so they weren’t kidnapped either.

Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.

Deidre Killed the guard, but only she is responsible, and she died by misadventure case closed.

Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.

[Avernite]

“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the and Harry therefore had authority to be there, no forcible felony burglary, and no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.

Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.

At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon,  is that a felony or misdemeanour.

Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.

The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times. The guards were  confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault)  so they weren’t kidnapped either.

Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.

Deidre Killed the guard, but only she is responsible, and she died by misadventure case closed.

Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.

I really think you don't know the point of felony murder; it took me a few years to get the hang of it (while still considering its full application silly), but still.

Harry, Deirdre, and gang together conspired to break into Marcone's vault. As far as they knew they were committing burglary, and Harry definitely assaulted guards with fireworks. In the course of the burglary/assault, a guard was murdered. That, and that alone, is enough to confirm felony murder for all the conspirators in the burglary/assault.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

They had lawful authority, they just didn’t know they had, and that destroys any case against Harry unless Marcone denies that they had that authority, which would put him in Mab’s bad books, he organised this with her to get revenge over Nicodemus. It wasn’t a bank job, it was a con job. Here’s a hint look at what Skin Game is slang for, otherwise under your interpretation that novel is called Bank Bust.

[Avernite]

They had lawful authority, they just didn’t know they had, and that destroys any case against Harry unless Marcone denies that they had that authority, which would put him in Mab’s bad books, he organised this with her to get revenge over Nicodemus. It wasn’t a bank job, it was a con job. Here’s a hint look at what Skin Game is slang for, otherwise under your interpretation that novel is called Bank Bust.

Marcone does not have the right to approve Harry assaulting anyone.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

 Marcone can and did give lawful authority for the group to be in the bank vault, everything that flows out of that is the individual responsibility of the participants. This group is then set upon by guards, who were unaware that they had lawful authority to be there.

[Bad Alias]

Good and evil is not the same as lawful and unlawful.

I agree with this so much. (I'm the one saying Harry is guilty of murder, but what he did wasn't evil; I think what he did was good). I noticed years ago a trend to equate the two in political and/or current event debates. Just no.

“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the.

This is an argument that Marcone had no right of self defense. Not that Harry had permission to be there. If he had permission to be there, then he couldn't have entered Hades. The way wouldn't have lead to Hades.

no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.

Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.

Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.

That's not what I said. I said Harvey died because of Harry's felonious activity. Felony murder, generally, is the legal rule that one meets the mens rea requirement for murder when one's actions cause another's death. I also said there is specific case law in Illinois that supports the application of the felony murder principle to Harvey's death.

At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon,  is that a felony or misdemeanour.

I know of a case where a woman was charged with adw for hitting someone with a shoe. Lot's of things can be considered deadly weapons. See generally https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kby5pn/a-brief-history-of-the-legal-definition-of-deadly-weapon. The case of pepper spray as a deadly weapon is particularly apropos.

Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.

Is it likely that someone was going to be killed over the course of the heist? If the answer is yes, then felony murder applies in Illinois. (Or at least that element of it was).

The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. If you're not, tell it to the judge.

The guards were  confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault)  so they weren’t kidnapped either.

Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.

Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.

Harry committed a laundry list of crimes. Telling Tilley the truth carries with it great risk of being charged and convicted of those crimes.

[1]Deidre Killed the guard, but [2]only she is responsible.

2. Not legally.

Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.

This is true. It also doesn't absolve Harry of any legal liability. It's not relevant to the laws of Illinois. It could be relevant to their enforcement.

Putting the jurisdictional arguments of crimes committed in the Nevernever aside for a moment, Harry would also be criminally culpable for the deaths of Deirdre and Ascher.

[Mira]

Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.

Not really, he didn't take anything from Marcone's bank, it was just the path he had to go through to get to the vault that belonged to Hades.

Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.

Which he most likely can and does.

This was never about what Harry did or didn't do, he was being used by Mab, Marcone, and Hades to get revenge on  Nic..  The whole robbery happened because it was allowed to happen, so no real robbery.  In the course of events one of Marcone's guards was killed by one of Nic's people.. Marcone 
accepted the weregild, he and Harry were even.  Perhaps he wants a little more revenge so he is siccing Rudolph on Murphy because Harry did get away with some serious loot, i.e. weapons of mass destruction..  Which if Hades is right, could only be done by someone clever enough and strong enough to use them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nope, you are having to make to many reaches to get to where you need to be, and ignore Marcone’s role in the proceedings, without that you would have an argument if you could overcome the other issues. You couldn’t build a case on this even with Harry’s confession.

The deaths of Deidre and Ascher occurred out of US Jurisdiction, and it is a matter for the relevant sovereign government i.e. Hades,  to deal with their deaths. Not the CPD or the FBI, there is no valid principle of extra-territorially, the deaths simply did not occur in the US jurisdiction, and neither was a US citizen, nor a US Resident. Deidre is older than the US, Ascher  is Australian. Neither body is in the US.

Goodness, next thing you will be accusing Harry of the homicide of Blood on his Soul,  despite him (a) not being human, or (b) he appears to have risen from the dead (so only attempted murder then).

I would point out that Rudy doesn’t appear to have any DNA evidence which would place Harry in the Vault and he should have left some, which along with the shed Giant Praying Mantisoid DNA and Genowskwa DNA would indicate Marcone got their first. There is no corroboration of Harry ‘s Confession.

Of course the way out of this is to ask Michael Carpenter to swear on a Bible in Court, as under your premise he is as guilty as Harry, but rarely those who swear “by almighty god” are actually on speaking terms with HIM. What’s the odds jury selection REALLY breaks Harry and Michaels way?.

[Bad Alias]

he didn't take anything from Marcone's bank

You don't know what burglary is.

Which he most likely can and does.

Not legally.

This was never about what Harry did or didn't do, he was being used by Mab, Marcone, and Hades to get revenge on  Nic..  The whole robbery happened because it was allowed to happen, so no real robbery.  In the course of events one of Marcone's guards was killed by one of Nic's people.. Marcone 
accepted the weregild, he and Harry were even.  Perhaps he wants a little more revenge so he is siccing Rudolph on Murphy because Harry did get away with some serious loot, i.e. weapons of mass destruction..  Which if Hades is right, could only be done by someone clever enough and strong enough to use them.

"This" is about whether or not Harry would be confessing to crimes in telling Tilly what went on in SK.

Nope, you are having to make to many reaches to get to where you need to be, and ignore Marcone’s role in the proceedings.

Nope, you're exaggerating his proceedings and ignoring the text. Harry said it wouldn't work if they had permission to be there. They didn't have permission to detain or assault the guards. That's enough.

The deaths of Deidre and Ascher occurred out of US Jurisdiction, and it is a matter for the relevant sovereign government i.e. Hades,  to deal with their deaths. Not the CPD or the FBI, there is no valid principle of extra-territorially, the deaths simply did not occur in the US jurisdiction, and neither was a US citizen, nor a US Resident. Deidre is older than the US, Ascher  is Australian. Neither body is in the US.

I have no idea how courts in Illinois, or anywhere, would handle the Nevernever. I do recall a case where someone sued Satan. The only problem was they couldn't get service on the guy.

Goodness, next thing you will be accusing Harry of the homicide of Blood on his Soul,  despite him (a) not being human, or (b) he appears to have risen from the dead (so only attempted murder then).

He may legally be a human being. They can definitely produce offspring with humans. We don't know if those offspring are viable, so we don't know if they meet the scientific definition of the same species. The grindelkin seem to require different circumstances to reproduce, so who knows.

I would point out that Rudy doesn’t appear to have any DNA evidence which would place Harry in the Vault and he should have left some, which along with the shed Giant Praying Mantisoid DNA and Genowskwa DNA would indicate Marcone got their first. There is no corroboration of Harry ‘s Confession.

There's enough corroboration for Rudy to show up and ask questions. There's enough corroboration to prove a crime happened. What with the shoot out, witnesses, and bodies. (It does seem the witnesses who could id Harry aren't talking). Corroboration of a crime is what's needed to convict someone solely on a confession.

Of course the way out of this is to ask Michael Carpenter to swear on a Bible in Court, as under your premise he is as guilty as Harry, but rarely those who swear “by almighty god” are actually on speaking terms with HIM.

Michael has a 5th Amendment right against self incrimination, so he would have to be given an immunity deal before he could be required to testify. I doubt Michael's going to volunteer to testify against Harry.

What’s the odds jury selection REALLY breaks Harry and Michaels way?.

As pointed out above, it'd just be Harry. But my point isn't about Harry getting convicted. It's that Harry did commit several felonies and therefore shouldn't tell a law enforcement officer that he did.

[Mira]

There's enough corroboration for Rudy to show up and ask questions. There's enough corroboration to prove a crime happened. What with the shoot out, witnesses, and bodies. (It does seem the witnesses who could id Harry aren't talking). Corroboration of a crime is what's needed to convict someone solely on a confession.

You forget about the "clean up crew."  I seem to remember Harry or someone commenting on the efficient clean up crew either Binder or Nic had to "clean up" the bodies and such, leaving no evidence.   

[Bad Alias]

The place was swamped with cops when Harry left. There's going to be evidence of a crime. Rudolph is investigating something.

[Mira]

The place was swamped with cops when Harry left. There's going to be evidence of a crime. Rudolph is investigating something.

Was it?  Rudolph is beholding to Marcone, they'd find nothing unless Marcone wanted them to.. It's all tied to the final scene when Harry and Molly confront Mab and Marcone about them  setting him up so Marcone could get his revenge..  Marcone didn't like that so Rudolph is putting some heat on.

[Bad Alias]

Was it?

Yes. Harry had to sneak past them. It's in the book.