The Fomor already unleashed ... Battle Ground Chapters 1 & 2

[Yuillegan]

I've seen that, but I'm not convinced it necessarily means that... at least not in the sense I'm talking about.

Some aspects of them / their power ... yes, would go back to the beginning of the universe, in some form. But not the individual beings (at least all of them).

The power of Mab is "older than time" per Harry's Sight vision in SK, but Mab herself is younger than Nicodemus.

Given what Lea says about memories being stored in the universe in GS, I think the current generation of gods having those memories could be more like how Harry & Molly just know what Winter Law is as soon as they think about it... it could go with the 'Mantle' to some degree.

As Mother Summer says, the power can't be created or destroyed - but it can change form.

Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most. But it's certainly possible that only the oldest/most original beings are from that moment. The real question is whether newer emanations/offshoots know what their originators know. Does Vadderung remember everything his original form did?

I agree though, the Power keeps changing in order to suit the status quo. Maybe it chooses to change. Maybe it is forced to.

Well, sure, relativity and all.. even without magic, in real physics, time can be tricky. But that rarely makes any actual difference unless you are dealing with really high speeds or extreme gravity wells.

True enough, at least based on our current understanding.

Yeah, the statue of Hecate in SG confirms some kind of connection, but we don't know exactly what.

Personally I think the Queens incorporated parts of various other Mantles, including Hecate, the Greek Fates, and the Norse Norns.

I agree.

But I think mantles can also be divided or consolidated (consumed?)

Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway? But yeah, I think Vadderung essentially hints at this.

[The_Sibelis]

I'm of the opinion, you could take the middle fate, kill her on the stone table, and basically make her into the two courts and that what happened to the missing sister. Course there's a trifecta motif going on there too, because we have Lachesis and Nemesis, or should I say Nortia, the Etruscan version of fate. Think about Mab even having an aspect of judgement, that's basically Nemesis. And would explain why Nemesis is the fae adversary and directly effects fae so much. She's a ghost upon the memory of the universe, they are her reflections here in reality because they are her. Would also explain why outsiders of a certain caliber are described in the necromantic 'deep' feeling. And of course the scary thing is the recent Woj soul doesn't change, and seeks it's original form... If they cannibalized them into the courts, the soul is seeking it's original form. Even outside of this specific theory, if you prescribe to the grand unification theory at all consider, the soul seeks it's original form...

[vultur]

I'm of the opinion, you could take the middle fate, kill her on the stone table, and basically make her into the two courts and that what happened to the missing sister.

I don't think anyone is missing. Both Mothers share the names/mantles of Atropos and Skuld, the Queens are Lachesis (and presumably Verdandi/Verthandi), and the Ladies are Clotho (and presumably Urdr).

And of course the scary thing is the recent Woj soul doesn't change, and seeks it's original form... If they cannibalized them into the courts, the soul is seeking it's original form. Even outside of this specific theory, if you prescribe to the grand unification theory at all consider, the soul seeks it's original form...

I think that WoJ was about mortal souls. The Fae and such seem to be based on spirit rather than soul.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think anyone is missing. Both Mothers share the names/mantles of Atropos and Skuld, the Queens are Lachesis (and presumably Verdandi/Verthandi), and the Ladies are Clotho (and presumably Urdr).

I think that WoJ was about mortal souls. The Fae and such seem to be based on spirit rather than soul.

MS is clotho, MW is skuld... Where is Lachesis? The queens? Yea, that's exactly my point. Where there should be a third just as powerful being we have the courts split in two
Lmao, they have spirit, indeed. They have spirit... Lmao. Man, the reference section should be mandatory reading because I am not going to personally relay an entire couple of threads on the nature of the fae and their soul. Suffice it to say the argument has been well laid, and not by me.

[vultur]

MS is clotho, MW is skuld...

No, *both* Mothers are Skuld and Atropos.

This question was asked ages ago ("if MW is Atropos and MS is Clotho, where's the third Fate") and Jim's response was that the model is off by 90 degrees.

So both Mothers = Atropos, both Queens = Lachesis, both Ladies = Clotho.

Suffice it to say the argument has been well laid, and not by me.

Yeah there have been lots of arguments about this stuff before.

But I think that WoJ about White Court feeding confirms that the Soul/Spirit distinction is both real and makes a huge difference (I think we knew that from GS, but that WoJ gives more parameters).

White Court feeding may affect the soul to some degree, but can't destroy it. When the White Court feeding kills someone, that's by exhaustion of life force, not destruction of soul... their afterlife isn't removed.

IMO this probably also means that when a Changeling Chooses Fae (or when Susan turns Rampire in Changes, etc.) the soul goes on to the afterlife and only spirit is left in the new being.

Now that doesn't mean no Fae have souls - Molly does. Other Mantle-bearing Fae might too, depending on whether they were Fae (or Changelings who Chose Fae) before they took up the Mantle.

[vultur]

Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most.

Presumably not. I don't think the Creator/TWG is a Mantle, and I don't think Ethniu is either.

But there's a WOJ about Mantles and the Greek gods etc. (the one with Hercules' Mantle passing to the Hulk and now existing "in people's minds and imaginations") which does kind of make me think that most of the "pantheon" gods are or have Mantles.

So I'd tend to think that Titans, capital-D Dragons, etc. are "natural" Immortals older than humanity, but "later-generation" / more 'human' gods (like the Tuatha de Danaan vs. the Fomor, or the Olympians vs. the Titans) are Mantle-based to at least some degree.

Harry calls the Tuatha 'proto-fae' but that would still be consistent with them being basically human-derived via Changelings... they may have been more like a Fae Court, not all capital-I Immortals, just the leaders.

And 'gods' may be a loose term anyway... Vadderung called the Lords of Outer Night & Red King "mostly retired gods" like himself but they didn't seem that immortal, they stayed dead and no Mantles passed on. They had that one 'crushing will' trick and otherwise they were just supercharged Red Court Vampires.

Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway?

Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.

Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.

[Yuillegan]

I seem to remember that he was referring to the mantle of "Strongest" when discussing Hercules/Heracles.

I think people get a bit too hung up on the word "mantles". All it really refers to is packet of power and it's associated knowledge and responsibilities. I'd say that some beings inherited the power of other beings, but the price of that was the knowledge and responsibility that came with it. And perhaps the limitations as well. How they inherited the power and under what circumstances is quite varied but Vadderung suggests that it wasn't always willing - the whole theme of Halloween is about stealing and feeding and tricking etc. Some likely were sacrificed, willingly or otherwise, and some even chose to pass on much of their power to others. It seems the Fae were one vehicle for this. But I am sure there are others.

And it seems that the Lords of the Outer Night managed to take the power of older gods and supplant them - which I suspect was no accident. I also think it answers your question of why they weren't actual immortals; they weren't. But they had access to tremendous power which they squandered (and perhaps they were suppressed). I don't think they ever had Mantles as the power was never built up in such a package. I think due to their nature they took the power the only way they could: by feeding. I did find the LoON a bit underwhelming. But perhaps they were meant to be. I think finally we can start asking Jim bigger questions now he has expanded the universe a bit.

Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.

Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.

Jim used the analogy of the three blind men and the elephant. I suspect that it goes a little something like that. We see three separate Queens, or six, but really they form a part of something greater. Maybe that was a being called Hecate. Maybe Hecate was a six-part being that was smaller that grew all six parts. Maybe Hecate herself was a smaller part of a greater whole. Perspective is everything.

[The_Sibelis]

No, *both* Mothers are Skuld and Atropos.

This question was asked ages ago ("if MW is Atropos and MS is Clotho, where's the third Fate") and Jim's response was that the model is off by 90 degrees.

So both Mothers = Atropos, both Queens = Lachesis, both Ladies = Clotho.

Yeah there have been lots of arguments about this stuff before.

But I think that WoJ about White Court feeding confirms that the Soul/Spirit distinction is both real and makes a huge difference (I think we knew that from GS, but that WoJ gives more parameters).

White Court feeding may affect the soul to some degree, but can't destroy it. When the White Court feeding kills someone, that's by exhaustion of life force, not destruction of soul... their afterlife isn't removed.

IMO this probably also means that when a Changeling Chooses Fae (or when Susan turns Rampire in Changes, etc.) the soul goes on to the afterlife and only spirit is left in the new being.

Now that doesn't mean no Fae have souls - Molly does. Other Mantle-bearing Fae might too, depending on whether they were Fae (or Changelings who Chose Fae) before they took up the Mantle.

both mothers are not atropos... Only one of the fates welds the snippers.
We actually know specifically per woj that's MW.. MS is a dead ringer for Clotho, she has NOTHING in common with atropos though..
The Fae clearly have soul worked into their existence, it's one of the reasons things like the spiders actually EXIST and leave bodies... Not sure what the WCVs have to do with it there... Mantles are not the same as hungers of course.

[ClintACK]

"MS is a dead ringer for Clotho"

Could you elaborate on this?

I've always seen Clotho-Lachesis-Atropos described in the maiden-mother-hag model of the tripart-goddess. (Which is a model that's repeated in the two Fairy Courts in the DV with the Lady-Queen-Mother triple.)

[The_Sibelis]

"MS is a dead ringer for Clotho"

Could you elaborate on this?

sure,
The easy things are in the actual books thematics, MW is the unmaker, also what Atropos' job is basically (we know per woj she welds the shears too). Since the courts exist in balance it makes sense that MS is the maker,(the rampant version of which produces those jars of viruses). These are not things they share under a mask either. MWs pointy objects and MS jars are each their own. They are also in line with the Clotho and Atropos line up.
Lachesis btw, can be noted in her absence by the presence of her Loom in MWs cottage in SK. Though it disappears later. Either because Jim decided it was in an incorrect spot, it revealed too much, or someone subsequently stole it I only guess at.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Faerie Queens are all Mantles and should not be confused with their progenitor deities. They are not one to one substitutions .

The Power of Hecate and the Fates/Norns were siphoned into the Mantles creating the Mother/Maiden/Crone triptych we now have for both Summer and Winter, setting their relative strengths and balance against each other.

When Harry seeks to summon Mother Winter, he isn’t calling to the former deity, he is calling to the power the former deity had siphoned into Mother Winters Mantle, where a good chunk (but probably not all of her power) resided. That’s the point of Mantles, they allow the creation of something new which is greater than the sum of its parts. The Fates/Norns and Hecate are single Malts, the Queens are blends, but both with get you equally drunk.

If it was a one on one substitution why create the Mantles?

The purpose was to create a defender of the Outer Gates and a watchdog for that Defender (and seriously Summer have been derelict in their duty), and as originally constituted the deities could not perform that function

[The_Sibelis]

Actually that's all just as much conjecture as any theory. We don't know mantles are NOT one for one, and that the identity itself changed. In fact per woj that is what happened with some deity.
Not all mantles were fashioned as the Sidhe were.
What you're actually implying is the courts themselves have more than one deity fed into them through the table, which is entirely possible. But we don't know the mothers simply didn't shift to align with the new order, as we have Woj that it effects them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Yes we do we have had a lengthy exposition about the true nature of Halloween, you don’t put that in and the ignore it, it is Checkov’s God.

[vultur]

I've always seen Clotho-Lachesis-Atropos described in the maiden-mother-hag model of the tripart-goddess.

Yeah, exactly. (At least for the DV; I think that model is often applied to RL mythology rather more broadly than it actually fits.)

both mothers are not atropos... Only one of the fates welds the snippers.

IMO they both are; it's not just the Shears.

The Jars are Mother Summer's aspect of Death - Death by life turned against itself (whether through infection or cancer or whatever).

MW doesn't just have the Shears but also iron teeth - she is Entropy, the consumer of all life, death by exhaustion of life (old age) or energy (starvation, cold).

Both Courts have Life/Death and Maker/Destroyer aspects (see what Mab says about Winter's drive to reproduce in "Cold Case")

The Fae clearly have soul worked into their existence, it's one of the reasons things like the spiders actually EXIST and leave bodies...

Their leaving bodies is a result of them having real matter in their bodies, not just NN ectoplasm. I don't see how it relates to soul vs spirit.

I don't think they ever had Mantles as the power was never built up in such a package. I think due to their nature they took the power the only way they could: by feeding.

I agree. I think it's kind of like Kemmler, he ate ghosts to gain power (according to Mab) but never successfully completed a Darkhallow to form an actual Mantle.

When Harry ate Kravos' ghost in GP, he used up the power and then it was gone. Without a Mantle, Kemmler probably had to keep eating more ghosts.

I did find the LoON a bit underwhelming. But perhaps they were meant to be.

Yeah, I don't think they are weaker than they "should" be. I mean the Faerie Ladies are actual Immortals and they (except Molly) are IMO much less impressive than the LoON.

[The_Sibelis]

They are not jars of death, they are jars of lethal things, big difference. And Harry pretty much postulates on a period of rampant growth to have the same effect in SK. Just because it kills us doesn't mean it's death. The planet would survive just fine.
The drive to reproduce is not a drive to create things...
Because things purely of spirit do not have bodies. Things purely of soul can be proven to have them, per Uriel, tho. Things with pieces of soul actually exist. Might not have a whole one, but they were made from soul.