The Red Court, The Fomor, and Could Thomas Have Been?

[Mira]

   Back in Dead Beat I believe it was, Harry told Morgan that he believed that the Red Court were
acting as cat's paws for someone else.  Possible answers were the Black Council, Outsiders, etc.

Then after Changes, the Fomor seemed to come out of nowhere and the conventional wisdom was
because the Red Court kept them in check, removing the Red Court, removed the cork in the bottle so to speak.

I finished Bombshells last night, and there was a curious line about the bomb that was planted at the party by the Fomor.  Lord Froggy says to Listen

Listen bowed his head.  "How efficacious do you anticipate your gift to be?"
"The one I made for the Red Court in the Congo was deadly enough," Lord Froggy said, a smug tone in his voice.
My heart pounded even harder.  During the war with the White Council, the Red Court had used some kind of nerve gas on a hospital tending wounded wizards.

You don't make nerve gas bombs for someone who is an enemy, or even someone keeping you in check.  You make them for a partner, an ally, for someone you want to do the dirty work for you.

So Harry was right is appears, the Red Court was a cat's paw, for the Fomor, not the Black Court or Outsiders. What is more, the Red Court were being used as one huge diversion, while the Fomor quietly, stealthily built up their forces under the lake and elsewhere.  Not unlike the events when Harry's duel with Count Oretega set off the war before the Reds were fully ready to fight, as Shiro said. Perhaps the events in Changes, Harry killing off the Red Court forced the Fomor to come out into the open before they were really ready?  It looks dire for Battleground, but there is a glimmer of hope there as well, the Fomor could be moving before they are really ready to move.

The other part of this is the reason Lord Froggy had a bomb planted at the party that was supposed to celebrate the Fomor/Svartalf alliance or non aggression pact,was to get revenge on Marcone. Lord Froggy is very specific, he wants confirmation that the Baron was there. Then says he will pay for what he did to his brother.  Which brings us to the next point, Molly breaks it up and Lord Froggy nearly kills her before Etri shows up and saves her.  Lord Froggy is dealt with, however Listen and his Turtle necked cohorts are allowed to go.  Molly objects, but Etri says they have no quarrel with the Turtlenecks because they got Lord Froggy.. He was the one who violated their guest law, "you go after the hand that uses the hammer, not the hammer."  We also find out that though supposedly Thomas was acting as an agent or spy for the White Court, the Svartalves considered him pretty harmless punishing him with lots of sex apparently, then he was free to go.

Which brings us to the events in Peace Talks.  The original bomb was planted by Lord Froggy to get revenge against Marcone.  The plan was thwarted by Molly and Atri, though Lord Froggy was dealt with, Listen and company were let go to fight another day.  Or seek revenge, in Peace Talks it was a bomb that went off and nearly killed Etri.  The Fomor were attempting to get revenge against Etri for what he did to Lord Froggy. Poor Thomas just happened to be there at the time partying, but since he had been an agent in the past, he gets the blame for it. Which also worked to their advantage not just as a diversion, but because of the events in Bombshells plausible deniability, easy to just point the finger at Thomas.

 

[ClintACK]

I like it.

Still needs a bit more to explain why the svartalves are so sure it was Thomas, and why Lara (having seen the video, which Harry hasn't) thinks the same.

[Mira]

I like it.

Still needs a bit more to explain why the svartalves are so sure it was Thomas, and why Lara (having seen the video, which Harry hasn't) thinks the same.

 It goes back to I think Lara sending Thomas in as an agent to begin with to disrupt the original talks
between the Fomor and the svartalves in Bombshells.  Since the Peace Talks were coming up, she may have done it again.  However just like Justine said in Bombshells, Lara will deny every time that her or the White Court had anything to do with sending him in.  So she is between a rock and a hard place, she may know for a fact that Thomas didn't have or place that bomb, but at the same time if she knows that much, she also is admitting she sent him in there to begin with.  The svartalves at the same time could be jumping to conclusions, without motive or evidence except he was there.. 

That is what is so weird about Peace Talks and why the feel of it kind of falls off the rails.  Where in the hell is P.I. Harry Dresden in all of this?  Instead of banging Murphy [not that there is anything wrong with that] Harry should have talked to her about forensics.  What was the bomb made of?  Does it fit a possible White Court MO? How would Thomas have got the materials in the first place?  That would have gone a long way to clear Thomas of guilt. 

[spiritofair]

Crap, I don't even remember there being a discussion of there being a bomb that killed Austri... Do I need to listen to Peace Talks again, lol?

Also, I think the fomor and the red court are both cat's paws of the Black Council.

[Mira]

Crap, I don't even remember there being a discussion of there being a bomb that killed Austri... Do I need to listen to Peace Talks again, lol?

Also, I think the fomor and the red court are both cat's paws of the Black Council.

He was the target supposedly, he wasn't killed though, the svartalvef that was a friend to Harry, who's children played with little Maggie was the one that was killed.  Who knows?  The Fomor might be the Black Council.

[ClintACK]

The description of what Thomas is supposed to have done was very vague.

There was mention of explosions (plural) going off and starting the fire, but it wasn't clear if that was the supposed assassination attempt, or whether the bombs were a distraction.

Complete description:

An assassin entered the stronghold this evening... Through treachery. The assassin reached my brother's business chambers. There were explosions, which started the fire. Several guards were wounded. One [Austri] threw himself between Etri and harm and paid with his life for his loyalty."

That is the full and complete description of the events. We never learn anything more, except that there's a video and Lara's seen it.

From what we know, it could be anything from a video of Thomas with knife-and-gun out shooting at Etri and throwing fire bombs to Thomas running into the room, then guards discovering Austri dead and Thomas beaten to within an inch of his life and leaping to conclusions.

[Mira]

The description of what Thomas is supposed to have done was very vague.

There was mention of explosions (plural) going off and starting the fire, but it wasn't clear if that was the supposed assassination attempt, or whether the bombs were a distraction.

Complete description:
That is the full and complete description of the events. We never learn anything more, except that there's a video and Lara's seen it.

From what we know, it could be anything from a video of Thomas with knife-and-gun out shooting at Etri and throwing fire bombs to Thomas running into the room, then guards discovering Austri dead and Thomas beaten to within an inch of his life and leaping to conclusions.

And Harry asking almost no questions.  What is also odd, and Bombshells underscores this, but would be expected of Thomas, is how is it he was overcome so easily and beaten up so badly?  In Bombshells the Fomor go into his room by mistake and he kicks the crap out of them.  Yeah, I know the elves are tough little guys, but unless he was starving to begin with, they shouldn't have overcome Thomas that easily in my opinion.  Which begs another question, if Thomas knew what he was about to do, wouldn't he have topped off his Hunger before hand to be at full strength in case the mission went bad?  Wasn't he getting a snack from Evanna?

[ClintACK]

Depends who he fought. Thomas beat the heck out of the fomor mooks, but Etri was even more impressive making Froggy look like a minor irritant.

And yeah -- the fact that Harry didn't ask questions was the surprising bit. I realize they hit him hard with the emotional distractions (Maggie in danger, Thomas in pain...) but I would have expected questions later. (I especially would have expected him to ask Lara for a blow-by-blow of what she saw on the video, when he learns that she saw it.)

I think it's quite possible that Harry was the actual target of the whole thing -- faced with svartalves terrorizing his daughter and his brother beaten mostly to death, anyone who has been paying attention would expect Harry to lose control and break guest right. (Heck, Harry was making plans to do it!) The Winter Knight blatantly breaking the Accords within hours of the start of the Peace Talks would have been a huge blow to Mab's honor.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

That’s the issue, if Etri is a major hitter how did this happen in the first place? Thomas shouldn’t have got anywhere near him, and shouldn’t have been able to injure Etri. What if the Swartalves staged the entire thing?

[Mira]

That’s the issue, if Etri is a major hitter how did this happen in the first place? Thomas shouldn’t have got anywhere near him, and shouldn’t have been able to injure Etri. What if the Swartalves staged the entire thing?

That is another possibility, they know better than to trust the Fomor.   Okay, tin hat time!  Suppose, Lara, Mab, and the Svartalves worked it out ahead of time to discredit any agreement?  Thomas agreed to go in hungry so he could be beaten up badly enough to make a good show of it. Thomas would then be transferred to the Castle where he could easily be rescued.  For his bravery, Mab agreed to shut off the embryo Hunger so Justine could survive her pregnancy.. Favor number one granted.
 
No one was supposed to get hurt, but Austri got killed somehow, after which, all bets were off.  Thomas wasn't going to get any life saving nourishment, so then Lara and Mab had to go to plan "D," in other words, Harry.  They wanted to make sure their butts were covered, so that is why they popped into the Monstermobile when they did, just before things hit the fan.  Once Harry and Lara went into rescue mode they put on a pair of mission blinkers so effective, they could only deal with what was directly in front of their noses.  Meanwhile the Fomor were coming at everyone sideways and they were blind to it all.  Suggests maybe they had someone on the inside at the Svartalve Embassy, to make sure Thomas's mission would turn into a complete snafu..

[Yuillegan]

Mira, I like it. Very interesting idea.

Perhaps Thomas wasn't actually attempting to kill anyone, but was trying to stop the bomb. It would look good if he had been successfull but bad if he was just there at the wrong time when it went off.

Let's say he somehow becomes aware of the plot. He attempts to stop it but fails. However all the Svartalves see is a armoured White Court Vampire right as a bomb goes off.

Perhaps he was set up. Maybe he was given poor information. Or perhaps he was just too late. Regardless, it all goes bad for him.

[Mira]

Perhaps he was set up. Maybe he was given poor information. Or perhaps he was just too late. Regardless, it all goes bad for him.

Which brings up yet another question that many of us have asked.  Is Harry jumping to conclusions when he just assumes that Thomas is trying to say Justine because seemingly the name he is trying to say sounds like it starts with a "J"?  On one hand as much as he loves her, he is hurt etc. it is natural that that is what he is saying.  However I find it suspicious that Jim pounds that home three times I believe, not just what Thomas is trying to say, but that Harry almost instantly replies the same way.. In other words he thinks he knows what he is saying, but is he actually trying to listen to what Thomas is trying to say?  He isn't giving it any further thought.

So we don't know a lot of characters outside of Justine who's name begin with "J" or sound like "J."
So Justine is a good choice, but if that is what Thomas is saying, is it because she is on his injured mind or because she is behind what happened to him?  Or is there a new character or a minor character that has a very "J" sounding name who is behind the bomb? We know very few of the Fomor or their henchmen,theTurtlenecks,very few of the Svartsalves for that matter.  Also outside of the Fae, nobody is compelled to tell the truth. As far as that goes, Lara in both Bombshells and in Peace Talks has admitted freely that she'd lie or have to find a way to deny, if asked, if she had anything to do with Thomas being at the embassy.

[vultur]

So Harry was right is appears, the Red Court was a cat's paw, for the Fomor, not the Black Court or Outsiders.

I agree. At least about the Fomor ... the Outsiders might also be involved; somebody on the Red Court side summoned Outsiders to use against the White Council in the "offscreen" battles in DB and PG.

I kind of think both the Fomor and the Outsiders believe they are using the other group as a distraction. So "coordinating their efforts" (as we see in PT with the attack on the Gates at the same time as Ethniu shows up) but not really "on the same side" in terms of long-term goals.

My further WAG is that actions Harry attributes to the "Black Council" are a combination of Nemesis (in favor of the Outsiders) and the Circle (probably working with the Fomor, given Cowl's "mildew" gates).

Depends who he fought. Thomas beat the heck out of the fomor mooks, but Etri was even more impressive making Froggy look like a minor irritant.

That’s the issue, if Etri is a major hitter how did this happen in the first place?

Eh... Etri's impressive, but Thomas is pretty deadly physically. Given how he performed against Black Court Vampires and a whole mob of ghouls when a lot less well-fed, I don't think there are many things on a human-like scale* that could easily defeat Thomas on a purely physical level -- not just win, but win without a serious risk of being injured in the process.

*The only one I can think of is the loup-garou. Sue the zombie T-rex and probably Tiny the Gruff, yeah, but they are on a whole different scale.

Now, a real power could just shut down Thomas without it ever coming to a physical fight, but I don't think Etri is even close to that level. Probably more on par with the Redcap or Cat Sith than with Mab.

The svartalves seem to be primarily about craftsmanship. They're probably really deadly with all their weapons and equipment ... but, like wizards, they need prep.

[Mira]

I agree. At least about the Fomor ... the Outsiders might also be involved; somebody on the Red Court side summoned Outsiders to use against the White Council in the "offscreen" battles in DB and PG.

I wouldn't doubt it, though I think the Fomor are cat's paws of the Outsiders. 

My further WAG is that actions Harry attributes to the "Black Council" are a combination of Nemesis (in favor of the Outsiders) and the Circle (probably working with the Fomor, given Cowl's "mildew" gates).

I agree with the addition of mortal dupes who do the summoning.

Eh... Etri's impressive, but Thomas is pretty deadly physically. Given how he performed against Black Court Vampires and a whole mob of ghouls when a lot less well-fed, I don't think there are many things on a human-like scale* that could easily defeat Thomas on a purely physical level -- not just win, but win without a serious risk of being injured in the process.

*The only one I can think of is the loup-garou. Sue the zombie T-rex and probably Tiny the Gruff, yeah, but they are on a whole different scale.

Now, a real power could just shut down Thomas without it ever coming to a physical fight, but I don't think Etri is even close to that level. Probably more on par with the Redcap or Cat Sith than with Mab.

The svartalves seem to be primarily about craftsmanship. They're probably really deadly with all their weapons and equipment ... but, like wizards, they need prep.

Here is a thought, if there is an insider, what if he or she summoned an Outsider to help take down
Thomas?  If one got in his head he hasn't the star born tools like Harry has to fight it.  Take Thomas out mentally and the physical vamp thing might not be that hard to take down.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Whamps are all offence as regards whammying, we only see two Whamps seriously go at each other mentally when Lara takes on Papa Raith. They may have even less defence training than the old school wizards, and Thomas is young he may not have developed any sort of mental toughness like old wizards.