Gifts -SPOILERS

[Yuillegan]

First, are we still putting spoiler in the title and/or spoiler tags? I figure not everyone will have read Peace Talks yet but wanted to check.

Now, on to the discussion.


GIFTS

So something that has stood out to me is that gifts, favors, debts, obligations and grudges all seem to be traded and are the real currency of the supernatural world. Gifts seem to be the most overt and perhaps most powerful tool of manipulation.

Whilst it seems that the various supernatural nations and beings have different ideas about what gifts are and the rules around them (e.g. the Fae are required to give a gift of equal value in return, and seem to supernaturally know what that might be) essentially they all trade gifts.

There are obvious events and times when gifts are to be given such as birthdays, inaugurations and holidays (literally, holy days) such as Christmas. There are rules about the duties and obligations of lords, hosts, guests and servants about what kinds of gifts and so on.

What really made me think about it is that the Black Council almost exclusively seem to give gifts to the forces/individuals they wish to either recruit or corrupt.

They arranged the Morgana's Athame to go to Lea, they gave at the very least the spell (if not a tome of dark magic) that Victor Sells used, I suspect that they arranged Mavra to train Bianca, they quite possibly gave a corrupted gift to Ferrovax (but that is as yet unknown) and they gave the cursed Wolf Belts to the FBI.

And I dare say they helped give the Eye of Balor to Ethniu.

That last one got me thinking too. Who ripped out a goddess' eye? Vadderung cut out his own (especially from the way his scars look). But Ethniu's looked like a very large angry feline ripped her original eye out. I doubt she did and I am sure someone else did. So who then?

But I would guess that the Black Council facilitated it. Why do I think that? Because the Eye was originally lost. Balor loses it when his grandson, Ethniu's own son Lugh knocks it out of his head with a stone from a sling (very David and Goliath). Ethniu might have been given her father's eye by her son but why she would use it herself rather than her son is strange. Stranger still...where is her son?

Some have speculated that Morgana's Athame carried the Nemfection. Perhaps all of their gifts are tainted in that way. Which leads to more questions. How do they contain the being, is it like the Cornerhounds in that each vessel contains a part of the whole? And how does it then "infect" a host? What are the limits? What are the dangers?

So perhaps the Black Council are doing what is hinted at earlier in the series, exploiting the rules and twisting them against their intended purposes.

What other items could be infected?

Thoughts?

[Mira]

Some have speculated that Morgana's Athame carried the Nemfection.

I believe that Mab confirmed that it was in Cold Days when she tells Harry in regards to Maeve.

"It was the Knife."

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Maybe Morgan’s Athame was used to perform the surgery on Ethnui, and then given to Lea.

[Dina]

On topic: I think there is a real explanation in the real life mithology about the Eye of Balor (I just don't remember it)

First, are we still putting spoiler in the title and/or spoiler tags? I figure not everyone will have read Peace Talks yet but wanted to check.

The convention is: If you are in the DF spoilers (like is the case) you don't need to put any warning or spoiler tag in the body of the thread, but it is good manners not too put anything spoilerific in the title of the thread (as it usually shows in the "new thread" or things like that, out of the context of the DF spoilers section.
So, your thread is perfect. Write whatever you wish in the threads but not in the title. For example, I just saw a thread that says something about why Thomas killed Etri ,and that is not very kosher (even when the trailer said that Thomas has killed someone, not everyone has seen it).

[vultur]

But I would guess that the Black Council facilitated it.

Possibly, depending on who you mean by that.

I think what Harry attributes to the "Black Council" is actually the actions of at least two different sets of beings; Nemesis and the Nemfected on one side and Cowl, Kumori, the Circle, and whatever other allies he has on the other.

(My WAG is that Cowl and co. are not Nemfected but just mortal wizards who believe they are using the Outsiders for their own goals rather than really being on their "side".)

Given the "mildew" descriptions we get for Cowl's gates, Cowl is likely connected to the Fomor somehow. So Cowl & the Circle & other wizard-type allies of the Fomor could very likely have been involved in giving Ethniu the Eye.

Balor loses it when his grandson, Ethniu's own son Lugh knocks it out of his head with a stone from a sling (very David and Goliath).

On topic: I think there is a real explanation in the real life mithology about the Eye of Balor (I just don't remember it)

Yes, Lugh's sling stone is supposed to have knocked Balor's Eye out the back of his head.

The more interesting question is how it was ever retrieved and installed, given how incredibly destructive it was when not covered!

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Simple it needs a living entity to power it, making Ethnui the best match. It’s not like Medusa’s Head, otherwise it would be carried around in a box.

[ClintACK]

Are we sure that Cowl and Kumori aren't Nemfected?

Remember that the main sign of Nemfection is people acting against their basic natures -- Kumori is a necromancer who is trying to use it for good. That's pretty much the opposite of the standard nature of a necromancer. (And there could be a very good reason not to use necromancy to help people the way she does -- remember that Aurora was certain that she was doing the right thing, too. The DV is a world with a real, empirically-verifiable afterlife, so "ending death" might not be a pure good. And using necromancy to directly stop people from dying might have all kinds of horrific consequences for the person so "helped".)

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s not people acting against their natures, it people who don’t have full free will being able to act without restrictions. It’s not worthwhile infecting mortals because we can act without restriction in any event.

[vultur]

Are we sure that Cowl and Kumori aren't Nemfected?

No, I am just skeptical of attributing everything weird that is happening to Nemesis.

From various hints in the books and WOJs there seems to be some kind of big cosmic thing coming up that is known to most of the major powers (now, with PT, presumably this has something to do with the Starborn cycle of 666 years).

So there is reason to expect a lot of unusual activity, even without Nemesis.

Remember that the main sign of Nemfection is people acting against their basic natures -- Kumori is a necromancer who is trying to use it for good. That's pretty much the opposite of the standard nature of a necromancer.

Do we know that? All the necromancers we've seen have been connected to Kemmler in some way, and he was super-evil. So arguably these aren't "independent" instances of necromancers going evil, they are all derived from one source.

And the Laws of Magic mean that any necromancer is going to be hunted by the Council, which will drive them to more desperate measures.

Harry doesn't seem corrupted by using necromancy to animate Sue in DB; we don't see him tempted to use necromancy again, the way we see him tempted to use magic to kill a few times in the early books.

Sure, maybe that didn't *technically* violate the Laws since Sue isn't human, but Harry also says that necromancy uses a fundamentally different kind of energy than regular "life" magic. So if that energy was inherently corrupting, we should have seen that, IMO.

So I think there is some (though fairly weak) evidence that necromantic energy isn't inherently, per-se evil.

(And there could be a very good reason not to use necromancy to help people the way she does -- remember that Aurora was certain that she was doing the right thing, too. The DV is a world with a real, empirically-verifiable afterlife, so "ending death" might not be a pure good.

Oh, absolutely. I think that it's definitely misguided and they are willing to do evil things to that end, so they are villains. But people can be evil without being corrupted by black magic or Nemesis.

My view is that only the 1st-4th Laws are directly corrupting in the usual sense, the 5th-7th Laws are more "don't mess with reality" sort of things.

Though Harry's experience redirecting the entropy curse in BR does kind of suggest that Outsider-powered magic might be inherently corrupting... but then that might just be him reacting against its "anti-reality" nature.

[Yuillegan]

Dina - Thank you for the clarification. Good to have a veteran of the boards around!

What do you mean by 'real explanation'? Are we talking about the allegory or something else?

Mira - You are quite correct, I forgot Mab confirmed it.

Vultur - I meant the Black Council/Circle. They may have nemfected team members, maybe not. I do see your point about them being separate groups but I don't think that necessarily the case. Nemesis is clearly it's own being, but the Circle may have nemfected team members themselves. Perhaps it is a requirement. In any case, it fits the Circle's MO to 'help' all these disparate groups in order to create more chaos amongst other goals.

Almost certainly Cowl is connected to the Fomor and I will eat the next book if he doesn't appear.

I think Conspiracy Theorist's idea is plausible about it needing a living being (although there is nothing to actually suggest this from the text)...and in myths often the various body parts of supernatural beings continue to function even after separation from the whole. Odin's eye was supposedly still working in the well, Medusa's head still turned beings to stone even after being removed from the body, Ganesh survived the removal of his own head and the replacement with an elephant's head etc. So I think once the Eye was removed it is just as likely that it continued to function and was immediately covered. Who can say? Just another mystery.

I agree that you probably can't attribute all the weird and bad to Nemesis. Even Jim has hinted at this before. Lucifer and his team have their own agenda. The Denarians having competing agendas often within their organisation. So I'd say that their are many competing games being run.

You are dead on about the cosmic competition. You other thread has a plausible explanation for what it is and it's mechanism.

I think all the Laws are about not messing with reality...even if that's not always clear how. The whole conversation with the Angel of Death hints at just how many pieces go into creating any given reality. But I would agree that perhaps it's a factor of scale. Messing with Time is clearly going to have larger repercussions. Perhaps beyond just the one reality...

The Outside is inherently corrupting. The bit in chapter 12 about rubbing minds with things from the Outside explains this mostly. Only starborns are immune. But while related, I think this is a different sort of corruption to the full scale control of Nemesis. But I do suspect it is related somehow to black magic...but perhaps that is a filtered down version. And I also suspect that Nemesis isn't the most corrupting being out there.

Conspiracy Theorist - Just to be clear we have in-text confirmation from Eb that mortals CAN be nemfected. This is part of what makes starborn so special. Eb reveals that the minds of starborns cannot be tainted, and Harry deduces this is why Nemesis had made no attempt to do so thus far: because it can't. I can't seem to copy the passage from my ebook right now but the relevant area is chapter 12 pg 140.

This whole section implies that Nemesis can and indeed does infect mortals. And it's obvious why it would. Mortals have a lot of power in terms of their ability to Choose. If you could direct those Choices....you could control reality. No small thing really.

ClintAck - No, no one is sure who is or isn't nemfected. That's why it's so effective. So Cowl and Kumori could be. In theory almost anyone is a possible candidate. However we must think in terms of who is a probable candidate. Considering we don't know much about Cowl and Kumori's "reguar" behaviours it is very difficult to ascertain whether or not they have been tainted. But their proximity to both Dark Magic and their connection to other Outsider and Black Council related events, particularly Nemesis related ones, is certainly cause for suspicion.

I don't know that one good act is really acting against one's true self. I always read it as acting in accordance with her true self. Certainly it seems like she is the hopeful and naive apprentice who blindly believes the lies or delusions of her master. Regardless though, she still does plenty of bad stuff in Dead Beat. She was prepared to kill Harry several times and aided a madman in attempting to become a god, the process of which would have resulted in the deaths of thousands of people.  Maybe tens of thousands. True, she held back and she never committed an out and out murder or cruel act of violence. But she was conspiring to help someone who did, and any court in the world would say she was a party to his crimes. Can't just use the old "I was only following orders" or "I was trying to do the right thing" defence. Even if it's true, it hardly excuses her.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

yuillegan Yes as I have explained on other threads mortals can be infected but why bother, we already have free will, and most are not in a position to affect events. At best we make convenient disease vectors, and it is easier to whammy, bribe, threaten or blackmail a mortal to do your will. Nemesis is clearly limited by the number and type of beings it can influence, otherwise it would be everywhere.

[Yuillegan]

I suggest rereading some of the WOJ on Choices and Reality. From the perspective of a mortal, choosing whether to do A or B or C might not seem like much most times but whether it's a big decision or not, all of them add up to create the reality we are in.

As I mentioned above, the passage in Ghost Story with the Angel of Death helps signify why mortals are so powerful.

The power Nemesis has if able to influence any of these decisions is huge.

You assume the only advantage Nemesis gives is the ability to give Free Will. But mortals being so weak in most ways could be far more easily tempted than immortals and the supernatural beings. If we look at the known mortal cases (Sells, Denton, Kravos) all of them received the power to change things. Mostly themselves, which is really what Nemesis does. But they believed the power it gave them allowed them to shape the world to their will. Sells had a lust for power born of feelings of greed and not having enough, Denton wanted to right the injustice he saw, Kravos wanted more magical might and vengeance. They all felt powerless, or not powerful enough anyway, and Nemesis (and it's agents) provided the means to more power. But as always, the cost was higher than they realised.

I agree Nemesis isn't and indeed cannot be everywhere (at least for now). It was my initial WAG way back when Cold Days first came out. But there are many reasons it could be limited. You only have to turn on the news to learn a bit about contagion transference. Perhaps there are only a small number of ways it can jump hosts. Perhaps it cannot survive in this reality for very long without a host. Perhaps it cannot even survive in a host indefinitely. Not to mention that likely there are beings and groups who would attempt to contain and destroy/expel it. Perhaps there is a limit to how far it can spread. And as we know, some beings are immune. Starborns, but also Archangels and likely other such beings.

In any case, Nemesis stands to gain a lot from infecting mortals. And the only known cases we have all have had significant effects on the series. Even if it wasn't obvious at the time.

Something else that's interesting is that Nemesis appears to be relatively new. But perhaps it is a being that has always been around and has returned.

[vultur]

The Outside is inherently corrupting. The bit in chapter 12 about rubbing minds with things from the Outside explains this mostly. Only starborns are immune.

I don't know that that is really "corruption" though. It sounds more like mental damage/insanity from exposure to an Outsider mind. That wouldn't necessarily be Law-breaking corruption of the kind that drives a wizard to do more of the same...

I mean, it's certainly something that the White Council would have very good reason to prohibit, because powerful wizards going crazy is really bad news. But I'm not sure it is the same mechanism as e.g. Harry being tempted to kill with magic in the early books, where using black magic makes it easier to do more of the same.

Conspiracy Theorist - Just to be clear we have in-text confirmation from Eb that mortals CAN be nemfected.

Eh, Outsider mental attack is different from Nemfection. We kind of already knew Harry was resistant to that from CD (when he stands up to He-Who-Walks-Before in mental combat and announces his Name).

I am not sure Eb even knows that Nemesis exists.

This whole section implies that Nemesis can and indeed does infect mortals.

Oh, I think it's probably possible, because the Gatekeeper in CD wouldn't have had reason to be so cautious (and warn Harry to be very cautious) if everyone on the White Council was totally immune by virtue of being human.

But I think Nemesis mostly goes after Fae, because they are directly relevant to the Outsider conflict and because mortals don't need to be Nemfected to be tempted into summoning Outsiders or otherwise helping the Outsider cause.

Regardless though, she still does plenty of bad stuff in Dead Beat.

Sure, but I think that's regular human evil justified as "for good ends" not magical corruption or Nemfection.

[Yuillegan]

I don't know that that is really "corruption" though. It sounds more like mental damage/insanity from exposure to an Outsider mind. That wouldn't necessarily be Law-breaking corruption of the kind that drives a wizard to do more of the same...

I mean, it's certainly something that the White Council would have very good reason to prohibit, because powerful wizards going crazy is really bad news. But I'm not sure it is the same mechanism as e.g. Harry being tempted to kill with magic in the early books, where using black magic makes it easier to do more of the same.

But wouldn't you say that it IS insane to continue to keep using black magic? In which case we are talking about the same thing? I agree that it may well be different things, that insanity isn't always necessarily malevolent in nature, but the Outsiders DO seem to be associated with all the worst kinds of dark magic Harry encounters. Every villain/person/being associated with Outsiders isn't just insane though, they almost always are evil. And often they were not before until they did.

I am not saying, and sorry if it wasn't clear, that dark magic corruption and Outsider corruption are the same. But perhaps there is more than one type of dark magic. Think 'chaotic' versus 'lawful' if that helps.

Eh, Outsider mental attack is different from Nemfection. We kind of already knew Harry was resistant to that from CD (when he stands up to He-Who-Walks-Before in mental combat and announces his Name).

I am not sure Eb even knows that Nemesis exists.

Morgan knows about it...why wouldn't a Senior Council wizard? Knowledge and Power go hand in hand in the wizarding world especially. I'd bet money he does.

Anyway, if you read the passage again, Harry's conclusion is that Nemesis hasn't infected him because it can't (just as I said above). Occam's razor.

Oh, I think it's probably possible, because the Gatekeeper in CD wouldn't have had reason to be so cautious (and warn Harry to be very cautious) if everyone on the White Council was totally immune by virtue of being human.

But I think Nemesis mostly goes after Fae, because they are directly relevant to the Outsider conflict and because mortals don't need to be Nemfected to be tempted into summoning Outsiders or otherwise helping the Outsider cause.

It's curious because on the one hand it seems like the Gatekeeper and others fear Harry might have gone dark side...and it even seems like the Gatekeeper wondered if Harry was infected. On the other hand, it seems like Harry cannot be infected, and Morgan's letter seems to imply that Harry can go far darker than merely Nemfected (almost as though being starborn might not actually be a good thing necessarily for mortals...the whole Destroyer thing).

I don't doubt Nemesis mostly goes for Fae, because they would be the ones it has most contact with. However, I suspect they are hardly the real prize. We still don't know a lot about Nemesis and it's functions and goals beyond trying to infect others and apparently open the gates from the Inside. But even supernatural beings can be tempted. Just look at Lord Raith. So I suspect Nemesis infect key people that cannot otherwise be tempted. It almost seems tactical.

Sure, but I think that's regular human evil justified as "for good ends" not magical corruption or Nemfection.

I agree. I wasn't saying it was a sign of dark magic taint or nemfection. Was merely saying that her one good act hardly qualifies her as mostly good by nature and so she isn't the best candidate for nemfection based on the idea that nemfection tends to have one act against their true nature. There are better reasons as to why she may be infected, if she is at all. 

[vultur]

But wouldn't you say that it IS insane to continue to keep using black magic?

No, at least not in the usual sense of "insane". Evil, yes (assuming we're not counting "gray-area" uses that aren't necessarily evil), but not necessarily insane.

I mean, it's usually irrational. For some random sorcerer on the Sells or Kravos level, if they ever really get anywhere, the Wardens will eventually find out and kill them.

But for someone like Cowl, not so sure.

Every villain/person/being associated with Outsiders isn't just insane though, they almost always are evil. And often they were not before until they did.

I think anyone who knowingly works with Outsiders pretty much has to be evil, given how destructive they are.

Morgan knows about it...why wouldn't a Senior Council wizard?

Good point.