Author Topic: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?  (Read 9233 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4256
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2020, 02:18:58 AM »
How about something as simple as "giant."  With the slurring of words it make sense, especially if If Thomas didn't know what it was he might have gone with a simple description.  In that case it could be anything that's really big.

Personally, I don't trust Justine.  She was way more capable in the short story Even Hand than we've ever seen her in the books and there's never been a reasonable explanation how she became steady minded.  In Grave Peril, Justine revealed that being with Thomas barely kept her sane, but somehow after almost being killed by Thomas she made a more than full recovery and eventually became the Raith office manager and after that a double agent working for both Lara and Harry.  As Harry's spy she just collects information, but we know from Even Hand that she has done field work for Lara, and done it well.  It's like Jim expects us to ignore Justine because Harry sees her as both incredibly sexy but also very sweet and; not innocent exactly, but something nice and maybe just a little too good to be true.   
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline Vairelome

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2020, 02:30:03 AM »
I think the Thomas + Justine True Love goes a fair way to defending her character, particularly from the angle of being loyal to Thomas.

That said, I've yet to see a theory that resolves the "why exactly did Thomas attack Etri?" question satisfactorily.

Offline Grifter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2020, 02:44:26 AM »
How about something as simple as "giant."  With the slurring of words it make sense, especially if If Thomas didn't know what it was he might have gone with a simple description.  In that case it could be anything that's really big.

Personally, I don't trust Justine.  She was way more capable in the short story Even Hand than we've ever seen her in the books and there's never been a reasonable explanation how she became steady minded.  In Grave Peril, Justine revealed that being with Thomas barely kept her sane, but somehow after almost being killed by Thomas she made a more than full recovery and eventually became the Raith office manager and after that a double agent working for both Lara and Harry.  As Harry's spy she just collects information, but we know from Even Hand that she has done field work for Lara, and done it well.  It's like Jim expects us to ignore Justine because Harry sees her as both incredibly sexy but also very sweet and; not innocent exactly, but something nice and maybe just a little too good to be true.
Giant seems more likely than Jotun.  But "Gi" sounds different from "Ju".  "Jn" is closer.

As for suspecting Justine, Cold Days left me with the impression that Nemesis/Maeve was interested in her but not that she was already infected.  Unless she was, and somehow suppressed it, and they were curious. 

I think the Thomas + Justine True Love goes a fair way to defending her character, particularly from the angle of being loyal to Thomas.

That said, I've yet to see a theory that resolves the "why exactly did Thomas attack Etri?" question satisfactorily.
1) He wasn't, he was trying to warn him and got interrupted and blamed by the bad guy.
2) He was enthralled by someone and only snapped out of it after the mission.

Either one would probably revolve around Evanna, with him visiting her after the Eb talk to feed, and either being enthralled by her or an ally, or him happening across info or overhearing a conversation and decided to get to Etri by setting the explosives to distract the guards. 

Offline ClintACK

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1940
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2020, 02:53:47 AM »
I like "Jotun."

However it does seem like Thomas relaxes when Harry says he'll take care of 'her' -- he doesn't mention Justine, so perhaps it's possible Thomas thought he meant Ethniu, but that seems like a stretch.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2020, 03:00:05 AM »
The garble could be translated to 'save Justine'. Thomas could be the source of the leaks as well.  A threat to Justine would be sufficient if it were potent enough.

The attacks look like someone is plotting against Lara.  You have Eb suddenly going on about the Vamps.  Thomas attacking the Swartelves, a leaker from Lara's court.  Could this be Eb taking revenge on the Raith's? Or maybe Marcone is plotting a take down his primary supernatural rival in Chicago. Or is some Government Agency taking a hand?

And you have Thomas not feeding and the comparison of what is happening to him compared to Papa Raith.  What if Thomas can't feed? What if someone has figured out Margaret's death curse and has cast it on Thomas and used the baby to bind it.

Offline Vanderboom

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2020, 03:26:35 AM »

   Wouldn't be the first time would it?   Finally the book arrived around one this afternoon..  I began
reading, why is it when you want peace and to be left alone, it doesn't happen?

Anyway, I haven't gotten too far, but a thought occurred to me as Harry gazed at his mangled brother.
What if his assumptions were wrong?  What if
(click to show/hide)

After I've finished this book, need to go back and check out names that are even remotely close, who do they belong to?  It could be very important in how this all comes out.

I'm speculating that it's Genoskwa. The Genoskwa seems similar to the Skywalker in terms of peer and maliciousness; it could have similarly tortured Thomas using the Hunger.

Offline ClintACK

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1940
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2020, 03:46:15 AM »
Thomas is still able to feed -- see Lara feeding him energy in the boat at the end.

It's just that Thomas was beaten until his Hunger stopped healing the damage, because it was out of energy. It's like what the Naagloshi did to Thomas in Turn Coat, but without the delicate balance.

The attacks look like someone is plotting against Lara.  You have Eb suddenly going on about the Vamps.  Thomas attacking the Swartelves, a leaker from Lara's court.  Could this be Eb taking revenge on the Raith's? Or maybe Marcone is plotting a take down his primary supernatural rival in Chicago.

That's an interesting thought. Add to that -- Lara's great victory was getting Thomas moved to Marcone's stronghold, where it turned out there was a glaring opening in his defenses. If this was his plot, you know he's got lots of video of Lara and Dresden breaking Thomas out.

I'm not sure how he'd provide what Thomas needs, though. He might be able to buy help with that from Odin, but why wouldn't Thomas be able to just buy that himself?

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2020, 04:21:41 AM »
Thomas could be the source of the leaks as well.  A threat to Justine would be sufficient if it were potent enough.
Solid point.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2020, 12:17:33 PM »
Yeah, I'm on my second reread and I missed Lara feeding him. Iteration two is that there are two Justine's.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24362
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2020, 01:08:29 PM »
Yeah, I'm on my second reread and I missed Lara feeding him. Iteration two is that there are two Justine's.

   Maybe it will come out in the second reading, but I'd like to have seen Harry go into motives for what Thomas did. 

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2020, 02:13:47 PM »
My initial assumption is that Thomas did what he did to protect Justine, but that Jim intends for the character in the cell next to Thomas to provide a cure for Thomas.  Or for the cell to do it.  The idea of the cell making the prisoner understand the harm he has done is a redemptive measure.  Thomas is a serial killer. He needs redemption.

For motivation, if Mab and Harry can take revenge on the Reds it isn't a stretch for the BC to try and take revenge on the Whites.  The whole idea of White Knight was to destroy the Raith faction and those aligned with him.

In any case this could all be a function of my over active imagination. 

Offline edf

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2020, 02:14:40 PM »
Here's a crazy theory.... Eb is responsible for Thomas attacking.  He decided it was time to get this whamp out of Harry's life.  This helps explain why Eb was checking up at Justine's and later freaked out and tried to kill Thomas at the Waterbeetle.   It's not rational, but it somewhat fits why Eb was so personally invested.

Offline Grifter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2020, 02:24:27 PM »
My reluctance to think Eb is involved is because him arranging a hit on an accorded nation's leader, who is currently allied against a common foe, right before a very much needed peace summit where he wouldn't want to risk peace failing because of his meddling, seems unlikely.  Not without him having intentions of ruining things, which also seems out of character.

Offline Vairelome

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2020, 03:42:28 PM »
My reluctance to think Eb is involved is because him arranging a hit on an accorded nation's leader, who is currently allied against a common foe, right before a very much needed peace summit where he wouldn't want to risk peace failing because of his meddling, seems unlikely.  Not without him having intentions of ruining things, which also seems out of character.

Yeah, I think the most plausible way that the Eb-mastermind theory works is the target isn't Etri specifically but the removal of Thomas, with the additional likely blowback landing on Lara/the Raiths.  It sort of fits (and Eb's extreme reaction later to learning that Thomas is his grandson makes more sense with this guilt-motive added), but I'm still not convinced.

Offline edf

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: What if Harry's Assumptions are Wrong?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2020, 04:32:59 PM »
Obviously, Thomas would need to get caught in the act of a semi-convincing attempt, but success wasn't necessary.

Eb was just around too much, acting too emotionally invested, and completely irrational towards Thomas for something not to be going on there.