Why, Thomas, Why? (Peace Talks Spoilers)

[Second Aristh]

Seems like Freydis should be added to that list.  She's a new addition to Lara's inner circle, and probably the easiest for a shapeshifter to impersonate.  She's mostly a physical brawler, and her runic magic can be stolen with no one the wiser.

[morriswalters]

“One of the people surveilling Justine is the person who threatened her,” Murphy said. “And they must have given Thomas an ultimatum. And because he’s an idiot like you, Harry, he didn’t tell her about it.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 226). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

There are three groups watching and Gary and Gray.  Cowl or Marcone is the cops.  I make the FBI for the MIB, and the last group is Lara's people. Right or wrong that's Harry's candidates.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

You are forgetting Paranoid Gary, who really should team up with Goodman Grey. Introducing Grey to Gary may have been Harry’s biggest mistake in PT, I can see them working together in the future, as Gary’s Internet skills and Grey’s actual world skills complement each other, and will probably get along famously as creepy paranoids.

Just read Monsters, yes Paranoid Gary would work well with Vitti, who would  merely call him “reasonably precautious Gary”. Vitti wasn’t able to discern it was Gary, only that someone had co-opted the cameras. I could see a series of Goodman Grey short stories and Novellas working, not sure about novel length.

[ClintACK]

There are three groups watching and Gary and Gray.  Cowl or Marcone is the cops.  I make the FBI for the MIB, and the last group is Lara's people. Right or wrong that's Harry's candidates.

Plus Eb. Harry shows up to look for someone keeping an eye on Justine. He spends an hour and a half looking for magical surveillance, finds nothing, and then has Eb decloak at his rear and call him an idiot for not spotting him.

Eb has a plausible explanation for why he's there, but he's also perfectly capable of hiding himself from Harry (as he did) and if it had been any other wizard veiled near Justine's place he would have jumped to the top of the list.

Alternative theory: The White Council was spying on Justine, which means Martha Liberty's spy network and scrying spells way, way too subtle for Harry to spot them. And it probably means Liberty alerted Eb to his former apprentice skulking around at Justine's place.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Okay why surveil Thomas and Justine in the first place?

1. Because of their connection to the White Court
2. Because of their connection to Harry

1. The White Court can buy and sell almost anyone in the mortal world so the cops and the FBI will be paid not to surveil Thomas and Justine. This leaves all other powers. Marcone maybe on the cops, but not if it is Rudy. Rudy is too incompetent and cowardly to be an asset for Marcone, I wouldn’t be surprised if his partner is an asset, but only reporting on Rudy, not Justine and Thomas.

This leaves the other powers. The Swartalves could do this magically through an untraceable device, Thomas interacts with them and they are paranoid about security. They wouldn’t use mortal intermediaries though. The fact that nothing could located would suggest that they have something there which even Grey could not discern. They are that good. They would therefore have known about the baby.

None of the other Accord powers have any beef with the White Court currently, or would not need to use mortal intermediaries.

The FBI may be Tilly on his own initiative, bypassing his superiors bought by Lara.Thomas and Justine live outside Chateau Raith making them the only accessible members of the White Court.

2. The White Council or a faction thereof could easily be the cops, Harry proved to them in Proven Guilty that conventional means are often the best against Wizards, and they know of the relationship with Thomas through Luccio. Rudy is being bought by someone, I think the Merlin is behind the current push to oust Harry and neither Eb nor Martha know as it isn’t an official White Court operation. If Rudy isn’t bought by Marcone, the Merlin is the most likely candidate.

Not Nick, Thomas has largely been in the background in the Denarian books and Anduriel can spy from shadows anyway.

The Black Council, maybe but again why use mortal intermediaries? They have in the past been privy to the White Council’s intelligence on Harry and didn’t need to do this.

[SpacedCowboy]

I'm not sure Thomas was set up at all.

Right at the start of the book, there's all this stuff about how his life is about to change, how the kid is important, and how Justine has a 50:50 chance of making it through the pregnancy. Thomas straight up says he has a solution in mind for all this in the first chapter and doesn't elaborate.

I think Thomas has Made A Deal, and that cost of that deal is the death of Etri. My favorite for the culprit is Etri's sister, Evanna, who Thomas has been "visiting". I think she offered him some sort of arcane help with Justine's delivery if he'd get rid of her brother, making her the outright leader of the people. We keep on being told how amazing the Svartalves are, and how even the Norse gods didn't want to tangle with them.

The counter-argument to this is that she plays a blinder of a part when Dresden turns up, and she could have implicated him easily, which probably would have made her less likely to come under suspicion herself. Perhaps she thinks she's so in-charge of the situation that she's not vulnerable and didn't want to complicate things. I guess we'll see.

The corollary of this is that “Junghg. S’Jnngh.” could be one of two things, a real plea to look after Justine (possible, but I think unlikely) or nothing to do with Justine and a warning of something - either way I don't think it's a warning to Harry that Justine betrayed him, though I realise I'm very much in a minority here

(I think it's supposed to look like "Justine. It's Justine" and the tear falling is supposed to be love-lost, but I still think Jim is misleading us).

[The_Sibelis]

I've long thought Thomas infected by Nemesis, ever since he ate Justine's insanity with most of her life force. Perhaps he was offered a deal through said infection?

[vultur]

I've long thought Thomas infected by Nemesis, ever since he ate Justine's insanity with most of her life force.

I don't think he actually did that. After BR Justine used medications to get herself under control, IIRC.

[didymos]

I don't think he actually did that. After BR Justine used medications to get herself under control, IIRC.

Yes, she did:

“What’s going on?” I demanded. “How are you walking around like this?”
“It doesn’t matter right now,” Justine said. “I’m better.”
“You aren’t crazy, are you?” I demanded. “You nearly scratched my eyes out that one time.”
She shook her head with a frustrated little motion. “Medication. It isn’t . . . Look, I’m all right for now. I need you to listen to me.”

Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think he actually did that. After BR Justine used medications to get herself under control, IIRC.

medications would make her a different kind of wreck imo. I don't see it petmenantly changing her, and most of those kinds of meds would not mix with a pregnancy I am thinking, from fringe experience. Things taking big enough bites that it tears into the soul on the other hand has been seen multiple times, what Kravos did to Harry (an I say it reached that deep per woj harry didn't keep Kravos' power because no life force was involved, but Kravos' had no Problem holding onto Harry's), what happened to Daniel in PG, and the indeed, the main correlation to eating Infection, Molly lost hers to the scarecrow I feel sure.

[vultur]

medications would make her a different kind of wreck imo.

They can work really well - for some people at least.

I don't see it petmenantly changing her

It's probably not "permanent", in the sense that she would have trouble again if she stopped taking them.

most of those kinds of meds would not mix with a pregnancy I am thinking

I mean it might not be the safest thing ever, but the pregnancy wasn't intended, so who knows. And it's not like modern medical advice really takes White Court Vampire pregnancies into account.

Things taking big enough bites that it tears into the soul on the other hand has been seen multiple times,

But if Thomas had "eaten" Justine's issues, she wouldn't even need to be taking medication in WN.

the main correlation to eating Infection, Molly lost hers to the scarecrow I feel sure.

I really don't think Molly was ever Nemfected, what would that be based on?

I doubt Nemesis is anywhere near as common as people tend to speculate. (I am still not 100% convinced that Nemesis infects mortals anyway - its effect is to change beings' fixed nature, which might not do much pitted against mortal free will -- though Harry speculates in PT that being starborn makes him immune from Nemfection.)

[The_Sibelis]

If you've read mouses story the correlation between black Magic and infection is no longer an ambiguous idea, or it's ability to effect mortals, which is pretty much confirmed anyway when Rashid feels it's necessary to examine Harry personally, or list off incidents involving mortals. I think she's quite common, she's the devil in everyone's ear, everyone has a shadow for her to speak through, humans can just override it. Those who can't, quite clearly have their own shadow mirror inside reality to prevent Nemesis room to maneuver.
And thomas became addicted to poison soon after, he craved the love and wouldn't be well fed without it, that's not natural. Nor was Justine's original illness which Kravos likened to a drug addict, which was directly reasoned in book to reduce willpower and allow possession. She acted not only entirely different but in possession of mind reading abilities not natural to what she seems usually capable of. No, glossing over Justine's sickness is blinding oneself to deeper clues, I plain out don't believe medication does anything for her, and despite her tongue and cheek reply in WN that that's why she's normal now, it doesn't have anything to do with it, if she even actually takes medication besides Thomas, whom was literally her medication as per her description of his effect on her. A particularly large dose/bite seems far more likely and proven of an idea. Especially since we encountered another with similar issues in sarrisa... Same issues? Doubt Mab helped her with meds either.

[ClintACK]

There's a bit of ambiguity between actual Nemesis infection (like Cait Sith or Lea) and Corruption (like warlocks). For the most part, the line is clear -- Cait Sith was nemfected, the mind-control warlock at the start of Proven Guilty was corrupted, but what about the corruption of a 7th-law warlock?

If a non-starborn wizard were to do what Harry did to the cornerhounds -- opening his mind up to the Outside -- would that kind of Corruption be Nemesis? Or just another kind of madness?


Re: Justine's madness -- if Thomas's feeding was the only thing keeping her sane, what's going to happen to her when Thomas is locked away in a cell??

[Mira]

If a non-starborn wizard were to do what Harry did to the cornerhounds -- opening his mind up to the Outside -- would that kind of Corruption be Nemesis? Or just another kind of madness?

In the end what does it matter?   I've thought all along that Nemesis is a strong arm of the Outsiders.
But the same as madness in mortals?

Re: Justine's madness -- if Thomas's feeding was the only thing keeping her sane, what's going to happen to her when Thomas is locked away in a cell??

She goes back to being insane unless Lara feeds on her to keep her sane while her brother is away.. Or if the root of what made Justine insane in the first place is cured, she won't have a problem.

There's a bit of ambiguity between actual Nemesis infection (like Cait Sith or Lea) and Corruption (like warlocks). For the most part, the line is clear -- Cait Sith was nemfected, the mind-control warlock at the start of Proven Guilty was corrupted, but what about the corruption of a 7th-law warlock?

Do you mean Molly?  She controlled minds that is what made her a warlock at the beginning of Proven Guilty.  She was born with that talent and out of ignorance and then arrogance she developed it to control the behavior of her friends.   Harry also has that ability but because he knows it is forbidden, except to develop stronger defenses with Molly, he doesn't do it.  I don't think either is even close to what Nemesis is or acts.

The Corpse Taker I think is closer to acting like the Nemesis infection because she actually invaded minds, pushed them out to take over the body.   Peabody used his magic ink to influence minds, which kind of acts like the Nemesis infection because it needs physical contact..  Which isn't unlike how Maeve and Lea were infected from close contact with the knife.   We haven't been told how Cat Sith got infected, though he too might have come in contact with the knife in his dealings with both Maeve and Lea.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nemesis doesn’t need to infect mortals, their free will means they can decide to work with Nemesis of their own volition. What they probably are though are a disease vector, they can be used to infect immortals. A mortal whistles in an Outsider, and becomes infected, the mortal summons up another powerful entity, and the infection passes in its entirety to the other entity, maximum viral load all at one time. My guess is that if Nemesis is a single entity split between multiple bodies like the corner Hounds then it has a finite amount of itself and won’t waste it on the powerless or ineffectual and will seek allies where possible.

On that Basis Nemesis infected someone in the ring when Maeve died. Not Harry or Mab, but Alfred?