A Hypothetical Diplomatic Incident

[Walter the skull]

Say Fix is sent by Titania to stop a mortal that is murdering changelings. The mortal has a small amount of magical ability, and is a member of the paranet.  His power is a watered-down version of the site.  He is also a serial killer that believes humans that aren’t fully human deserve to die.  He is killing them with a knife.  Fix engages the killer and burns him to a crisp. 

The paranetters let the council know about the serial killer.  A warden is sent to investigate the situation and witnesses Fix burning the killer.  What happens next?  Does the warden try to arrest Fix? What if Fix resist arrest?

What if it was Ronald Rhule a plain mortal, not Fix a changeling?

What happens if its Harry freezing the guy to death?

What happens if its Harry freezing the guy to death, but he is no longer a member of the white council? 

If the warden doesn’t engage, does he get in trouble?

If the warden engages and kills the knight, does the corresponding court have a legal right to retaliate against the council?  Would the queens even care?

If the knight kills the warden, does the council have any legal resource? 

Would the queens be annoyed that the knight didn’t go back to the council with the warden and let the queens and the senior council come to a diplomatic agreement? 

I think the warden would leave fix alone.  I’m not sure what the warden would do if it was Ronald Rhule.  I think the council would want Harry brought in under any circumstance.  The warden would probably comply. 

I wonder if a situation like this is how Eldest Gruff got the purple Stoles?

If you’re a mortal working for a fairy court that has been given fairy power, which group has dibs on you?  Are you subject to both sets of rules?  The only one who probably has any idea what would happen is Jim, but I wonder how these situations work.   

[vultur]

A warden is sent to investigate the situation and witnesses Fix burning the killer.  What happens next?  Does the warden try to arrest Fix?

Certainly not if the Warden knows that Fix is Summer Knight. The White Council knows how powerful the Faerie Courts are, and isn't going to interfere with them that way. The Council has a lot of rhetoric about protecting mortals, but that's pretty much just from warlocks, not other
Accords members.

What happens if its Harry freezing the guy to death?

What happens if its Harry freezing the guy to death, but he is no longer a member of the white council? 

Current Harry is a different case, since he is actually a member of the White Council, so the Accords don't prevent them acting against him under their own internal laws.

They won't go directly against Mab, but they could argue that Harry could still have fulfilled Mab's orders by killing via mundane means, as the Wardens do.

If Harry was not on the Council, then his only Accorded nation would be Winter, so the Council would be strictly hands-off - officially. Though they wouldn't like the situation, probably viewing him as a traitor, and might try to get him killed via indirect, unofficial, deniable means.

[Walter the skull]

That's pretty much how i see things too.

[forumghost]

Changelings are still humans, so what your question boils down to is "If a Minor Practitioner is killing humans and the Summer Knight kills him before the Wardens, will they do anything about it?"

Which... no, why would they? Fix isn't a practitioner (his abilities are all the Mantle) and the Minor Practitioner is dead, so, whatever.

Like, this guy is clearly going to go Warlock soon, because Changeling have superpowers and he has a Knife, I don't see that going well for him.

[Walter the skull]

Basically what I'm getting at is what happens when two jurisdictions overlap.  Fix is a mortal (sort of)  and he kills some one with magic, which is a violation of the first law.  Does it not count because Fix is an extension of Titania's will?  Does it not count because Fix's power is an extension of Titania's?  Does the council have jurisdiction over changelings or only standard humans.  When you are a mortal and take on a fairy mantle are you now considered a fairy?  Do the laws of magic only count for people who are using their own power?  If a mortal makes a pact with a dark god and uses the power he or she gained to kill some one is it a violation of the law?  They aren't really doing anything different than one of the knights, but they aren't members of the accords.

[knightedbishop]

Politics would take precedence here. I don't think the White Council would be dumb enough to piss Titania off by sending the Wardens to arrest Fix. There may be some posturing, and a hot head Warden could certainly cause a diplomatic incident if he caught Fix in the act and didn't stand down.

[Snark Knight]

Do the laws of magic only count for people who are using their own power?  If a mortal makes a pact with a dark god and uses the power he or she gained to kill some one is it a violation of the law?  They aren't really doing anything different than one of the knights, but they aren't members of the accords.

I think the laws may only be for those using their own power, yes. Fix and Slate didn't seem to do magic like a human wizard - I don't think they used spell words. That may mean the warlock progression of having to twist your soul to believe in bad things in order to be able to succeed at casting spells to do bad things doesn't apply to them, or at least apply in the same way. They have to deal with having their personality rewritten by the mantle instead. Granted, the difference between Slate and a warlock is splitting hairs, but there's less incentive to behead a monster when he's just going to be replaced by another monster once the mantle has a chance to work on the next guy for a while (which is probably also part of the reason the Council was generally not interested in sorcerer Denarians).

Harry is atypical both politically because he's already accountable to the Council as a member, and practically because he's mostly using Winter as a power boost to his own magic rather than directly, which he says is to resist being mind-warped by drawing deeply and directly on it.

As for an independent who made a deal with a dark god for sponsored power, there's probably some overlap with warlocks. An independent would typically have to have at least some small measure of innate power to get the attention of such a being in the first place if they stay at all themselves ... but in that case the Wardens would probably do the usual disable with magic and finish with a beheading or a bullet approach.

[Mira]

Fix was never a wizard so I doubt that the Seven Laws apply to him.

[Arjan]

The laws of magic apply to those humans the white council considers human

(click to show/hide)

And probably that magic the wite council considers magic 

[vultur]

Fix is a mortal (sort of)  and he kills some one with magic, which is a violation of the first law.  Does it not count because Fix is an extension of Titania's will?  Does it not count because Fix's power is an extension of Titania's?  Does the council have jurisdiction over changelings or only standard humans.  When you are a mortal and take on a fairy mantle are you now considered a fairy?  Do the laws of magic only count for people who are using their own power?

[/quote]

The Summer Knight is still mortal, he has to be - that's largely the point of the Courts having a Knight at all.

But it's not really about mortal vs. not, or what the source of power is.

The Laws of Magic are enforced by the White Council. They can enforce them against their own members, obviously. They can also enforce them against your average sorcerer, mortal practitioners who aren't members of the White Council, because they have no other Accords nation representing them - the White Council claims jurisdiction and nobody powerful is contesting that claim.

Fix the Summer Knight is a member of the Summer Court, an Accords nation. The White Council enforcing their internal laws against him just isn't going to fly.

Someone using power derived from a non-Accords-member entity to kill, like the HWWB-powered ritual in BR, would be subject to the White Council's enforcement.

[Walter the skull]

The Laws of Magic are enforced by the White Council. They can enforce them against their own members, obviously. They can also enforce them against your average sorcerer, mortal practitioners who aren't members of the White Council, because they have no other Accords nation representing them - the White Council claims jurisdiction and nobody powerful is contesting that claim.

Fix the Summer Knight is a member of the Summer Court, an Accords nation. The White Council enforcing their internal laws against him just isn't going to fly.

I agree with that interpretation too. 

In my other thread about Mab and the Council, Knightedbishop posted,"[Carlos] understood [Molly] was now the executive of a sovereign nation."

I think the Knights are treated like citizens of a sovereign nation, so the council leaves them alone.  Harry might be screwed because he was and still is a wizard, so the council can claim jurisdiction over him. 

I think Snark Knight made a similar point above.

[spiritofair]

The whole point of the Laws of Magic with regard to killing people, messing with their mind, compelling them, is to prevent the practitioner from being subject to black magic creep which damages their mind.

Fix's magic comes from a different angle, and I really doubt that he would be subject to this black magic creep. Maybe the mantle protects him from it? Kind of like how the Blackstaff, rumored to be of faerie origin (Mother Winter's walking stick), protects the wielder.

This line of thought raises a few questions:

- Is Harry protected now that he is a Knight? Is he immune to the concerns about black magic eating at his soul?
- To what extent does the breaking of the laws corrupt the mind? Are some more dangerous than others? Does intent matter (seems like it would... magic is all about intent in the Dresden Files)? Even if the intent is good, does the black magic still start a corruption? Can the corruption be "healed" with time or is a permanent stain on the soul? Most of the laws seem like they would lead to corruption, as they are almost universally evil actions. Except swimming against the currents of time. Obviously very dangerous with potentially major consequences, but doesn't seem like something that would corrupt the practitioner...

[Walter the skull]

I agree I don't think Fix would be corrupted at all. 

I think intent matters at first, but repeated use is probably bad no matter what. 

I think you have a point about the time thing.  I wonder about the law, it sound like it prohibits changing the past, but i don't know if it prohibits the slowing or speeding of time if a mortal could do that.

[Arjan]

I agree I don't think Fix would be corrupted at all. 

I think intent matters at first, but repeated use is probably bad no matter what. 

I think you have a point about the time thing.  I wonder about the law, it sound like it prohibits changing the past, but i don't know if it prohibits the slowing or speeding of time if a mortal could do that.

Slowing or speeding up does not change the direction, you don’t swim against the stream so it is ok.

[vultur]

The whole point of the Laws of Magic with regard to killing people, messing with their mind, compelling them, is to prevent the practitioner from being subject to black magic creep which damages their mind.

To a large degree, but I think it's important to distinguish between "the Laws as enforced by the White Council" and "what is actually corrupting". The first is highly subject to politics, the second presumably isn't.

(And I'm not sure that preventing the corruption is the only motive of the Laws of Magic either. The White Council is also supposed to be about restricting the power of wizards over mortals. Things like time travel and necromancy may not be corrupting in the same sense, just really dangerous to mess with.)

- Is Harry protected now that he is a Knight? Is he immune to the concerns about black magic eating at his soul?

I strongly doubt it. Mab doesn't care about souls, and Winter Knights apparently don't last that long usually.

- To what extent does the breaking of the laws corrupt the mind? Are some more dangerous than others?

We really don't know. It seems like there probably is a difference, though - Cowl and Kumori seem pretty controlled and 'sane' compared to other warlocks we've seen. (Their goals are crazy, but they seem quite capable of acting toward those goals in a highly competent way.) Necromancy may not be corrupting in the same way that killing or mind magic is.

Can the corruption be "healed" with time or is a permanent stain on the soul?

I think so, at least if the person acts against the impulses that are associated with breaking that Law. Harry really doesn't seem to be meaningfully tainted by breaking the First Law any longer, IMO.