Kincaid

[Yuillegan]

I have wondered for years who Kincaid is, and what he is a scion of.

We know he is vaguely demonic in origin, but not totally. We also know that he is mostly mortal aside from his enhanced physical abilities. Finally, we know that he has lived for centuries and served as the right hand of Drakul. He was known as the Hellhound or simply the Hound of Hell.

Well I wondered about all this. Most of us assumed that a lot of it depends on what Drakul is. If he is an Outsider, why would a demon scion serve him (unless he was half Outsider himself)? Kincaid hasn't shown a lot of evidence of Outsider connection. Same for if Darkul is a dragon.

But if Drakul is the Devil bound to human form, that makes Kincaid's story more understandable. Hound of Hell indeed.

Strangely, I watched that Van Helsing movie from the early 2000s again the other night. And Van Helsing reminded me of Kincaid. An almost supernatural skillful mercenary with high-tech (especially for the 1800s) weaponry and abilities. So I wondered if Jim had watched this movie.

And then we find out the Dracula is considered (in the movie) the son of the Devil. One wonders if it sunk into Jim's head even back then. Yes, he had introduced Mavra and the Black Court back in 2001. But the concept of Dracula being the son of the Devil is an old one.

[Bad Alias]

Here's the description of Kincaid from BR because it can't hurt:

Something enormous, malformed, something silent and merciless and deadly. It had to crouch to keep from brushing the ceiling with the horns curling away from its head, and batlike wings spread from its shoulders to fall around it and behind it, to drag along the floor, and I thought I saw some kind of hideous double image lurking behind it like the corpsespecter of Death himself.

While the description is pretty generic winged demon, it reminds me of a balrog even though a balrog is a generic winged demon made of smoke and fire.

The image of Death could be a hint at who Kincaid is a scion of, or it could be the occasionally referenced ability of the Sight to show the future, i.e., Kincaid kills Harry. It could just be that Kincaid is steeped in death.

[knnn]

I've long thought that Kincaid was a scion of Drakul himself, making him Dracula's (younger?) brother. 

I know there's a WoJ stating that "Kincaid made his Choice long ago", but in Blood Rites Harry describes the "the almost violent psychic pressure that accompanies a soulgaze" when looking at Kincaid.   This makes me believe that Kincaid has a deal similar to Goodman Grey where he gets to keep part of his Soul.

[Con]

I like the Van Helsing analogy.

Something also of note is Kincaid was impressed by Harry's ability and power in Blood Rites, where even Harry admits he didn't let loose. But Kincaid says, he'd never seen a wizard let loose before.

So therefore we know that Kincaid has never actually fully dueled Ebenezar despite knowing he was the Blackstaff, and whatever went down between them.

I also suspect Kincaid doesn't just limit himself to supernatural contracts, but does some mortal ones as well.

(click to show/hide)

Goodman Grey did take out a mortal trafficking ring

Honestly the one thing about Kincaid that annoys me the most is that if Harry had called in his favour for Kincaid to back him up at Chitzen Itza we could of seen Kincaid all out on the battlefield, which I hope we see in Peace Talks or Battle Ground.

[vultur]

I'm not sure how much help Kincaid would really have been at Chichen Itza. Kincaid is really deadly on a personal scale, and he's smart, knowing how to use modern weapons to deal with wizards etc. - but I don't know how well that would translate to a mass battle.

On a battlefield with the Lords of Outer Night and thousands of Red Court vampires, half-vampires, and human gunmen on one side, and three Sword-wielders, Lea, Eb (with Blackstaff in action), and Harry with fully-boosted Winter Knight power on the other... I don't think Kincaid would be much help.

Eb kills 200 of the gunmen in about a second. Harry crushes hundreds if not possibly thousands of "feral" Rampires with a huge gravity spell. Lea blows up two Lords of Outer Night with one shot.

Compared to that, sniping one enemy at a time isn't going to be terribly impressive. Especially since a shot in the head probably wouldn't be fatal to a Lord of Outer Night.

Kincaid is really scary vs. Harry because wizards are just human if you catch them without magical defenses. That doesn't necessarily translate to giving him a chance against the real supernatural powerhouses.

[Yuillegan]

Agreed vultur, Kincaid is more of a scalpel than a scythe. But I imagine seeing him in frenzied combat would be something like John Wick cross Van Helsing (from the movie). Just an incredibly fast, efficient killing machine.

In many ways he is like a wizard. How effective he is depends on how prepared he is, what knowledge he has. He could conceivably kill a Lord of the Outer Night with the right information and weapons. I didn't get the impression they were immortal. It's not an unusual tactic for a strike team like Dresden's to have a sniper or some such providing suppression fire and support.

Cheer Con! I was always annoyed by the fact Kincaid said that...especially considering what we know of Eb. My only thought was that it was written long before we got to see what Eb could do so perhaps Jim hadn't really fleshed that out. But Kincaid's comment to Dresden always felt like pandering anyway. Although it's possible he was less talking about Harry's destructive power and more about Harry's lack of control. Which is likely considering Lasciel was influencing him at this point. But I too want to see Kincaid go all out.

Knnn - I had wondered about that theory too. Was it one of your WAGs from ages ago? I swear someone suggested it a while back. Anyway, Kincaid as Dracula's younger brother would be interesting. But I would think he would have more vamp tendencies. It's an interesting idea that he might be like Goodman Grey...I suspect Jim has a whole other thing about monsters and souls that we haven't gone into much yet.

Bad Alias - I like the idea that the double-image might be the presence of Kincaid's progenitor. But the foreshadowing of Dresden's murder was long in the works...part of the reason the character exists I am sure (from a Doylist perspective). Perhaps it is a bit of both?

[vultur]

In many ways he is like a wizard. How effective he is depends on how prepared he is, what knowledge he has. He could conceivably kill a Lord of the Outer Night with the right information and weapons.

Oh, with the right degree of setup and the right situation, it's not impossible.

But in the Changes situation, they were going to Chichen Itza - on the enemy's ground - on pretty short notice.

I mean, maybe if he shot them in the belly enough to make the blood leak out, they would then be weak enough to kill. But that would require facing them, and I don't think Kincaid could resist their "force of will" ability - as soon as one of the Lords of Outer Night saw him, he'd be helpless.

I don't think a sniper rifle bullet in the head would be fatal to a being like that.

I didn't get the impression they were immortal.

Well... there are degrees of "immortal" in the DV. I agree they weren't capital-I Immortal, as no mantles seem to have passed on. Though they are "mostly retired gods", whatever that means.

But they're "immortal" in the sense of "don't age and really hard to kill". The Red King's hand starts crawling back to him, which suggests a regenerative ability on the level of the "uber-ghouls" in WN. Even if the other LoON are somewhat weaker, I don't think even a .50 caliber bullet to the head would do permanent damage.

Anyway, Kincaid as Dracula's younger brother would be interesting. But I would think he would have more vamp tendencies.

I don't think so. Drakul wasn't vampiric; Dracula joined/created the Black Court to rebel against Drakul. So another son of Drakul would have no particular reason to be vampiric.

[Yuillegan]

True enough. I suspect he would have been too costly for Dresden on such a suicide mission. But I wonder what he would do if it was Ivy?

I wouldn't be surprised to seem him verse the army that shows up in the next book or so.

Probably not, I doubt they would go down from a sheer bullet. They probably have wards all over themselves to prevent such things, assuming their physical resistance isn't enough. And I agree that they likely have strong regenerative abilities. I think only magical attacks had a chance, and those Swords of the Cross are pretty powerful. Lea herself is in a similar category clearly, for what it's worth. Although she caught two of them by surprise.

The other thing to consider is that they were not as strong as Vadderung, who himself is not what he was. They are nigh-immortals - un-ageing, superhuman and mostly immune to conventional damage. But they don't seem to be in the same category as things like the Ladies that would eventually reform regardless of physical destruction (with the exception of during/in conjunctions).

Well actually, we don't know that Drakul wasn't vampiric. All we know is that his son Dracula ended up as a Black Court vampire (possibly creating them to impress his father - which didn't work out). The real question is why would Dracula turn himself into such a being in order to impress his father? Why would he think that would impress him? What kind of being would be impressed by such darkness? It bodes ill for whatever Drakul really is...

[vultur]

But they don't seem to be in the same category as things like the Ladies that would eventually reform regardless of physical destruction (with the exception of during/in conjunctions).

Oh, I agree. They weren't full-on Mantle-bearing Immortals in the way the Faerie Ladies/Queens are.

But not all really powerful beings are.

Naagloshii are apparently killable by ridiculously extreme force, but they are powerful enough to distort ley lines around themselves. Having that kind of effect on reality probably puts them on at least Faerie Lady power level.

Kemmler seems to have been even more powerful than that, but he didn't succeed in becoming an actual Immortal.

Well actually, we don't know that Drakul wasn't vampiric.

Yeah, I phrased that badly. He might well be vampiric in the sense of feeding on mortal life/life force, which plenty of beings outside the Vampire Courts do. Just not associated directly with the Black Court.

[Yuillegan]

Very true.

Although I am not sure I agree with you on the bit about Kemmler. I don't see Kemmler disrupting Ley Lines. Not all of Kemmler's strength was magical. Much of it was in his knowledge, and his connections. He even had a small army of minions. That's really what made him bad, from what I can tell. He basically set himself up (rather like Marcone) as a Power. Maybe not as powerful as the White Council or whatever, but in some ways that made him more flexible and more dangerous. He could outmaneuver them. He wasn't bound by rules or protocol or bureaucracy. He was certainly a terrifyingly powerful wizard, magically speaking (according to most sources). But still human it seems, and therefore vulnerable. I rather suspect he used the council's own laws against them too. Kemmler would have succeeded, had his rite/spell been successful. But he was interrupted and blocked from using magic, his armies beaten and I suspect possibly betrayed by at least one of his loyal servants. I would also bet the big powers like Mab and Vadderung helped organise his downfall. They seem to have a hand in much smaller events than that, so it's even possible beings in the order of Archangel's were involved.

True, plenty of beings do feed off life force I guess. But I do think there is something hugely significant about Vampires feeding of blood/life force of mortals. I think it's tied into the bigger picture but I am not yet sure how. But part of it hints in how powerful they become, depending on what/who they feed off. And each Court seems uniquely fit to beat humanity in one arena or another. Yet they also seem uniquely vulnerable too. Sometimes I wonder if Drakul or some other big bad was experimenting with each Court and that a new and improved Court of Vampires will emerge.

[vultur]

Very true.

Although I am not sure I agree with you on the bit about Kemmler. I don't see Kemmler disrupting Ley Lines.

It's possible. Kemmler was definitely more dangerous than a naagloshii, given Listens-to-Wind's fight... surely Kemmler was more powerful than any single Senior Council member.

But maybe not more raw power. The Faerie Ladies are true Immortals, and in PG they make flowers grow/die when they walk into the room, but they don't seem that effective in fights; we've seen 3 get killed in the series. Listens-to-Wind doesn't distort ley lines by walking by; neither does Eb. Wizards seem to be able to use their power more effectively...

But I think Kemmler increased his raw power dramatically by eating ghosts (even before an actual Darkhallow) - Mab says that was the secret of his power. So I wouldn't rule out enough raw power to distort ley lines etc.

Much of it was in his knowledge, and his connections. He even had a small army of minions. That's really what made him bad, from what I can tell.

Oh, that definitely helped, but Mab does say that eating ghosts was the secret that made him a threat to the whole Council (and she can't lie).

But still human it seems, and therefore vulnerable.

Well, he definitely wasn't a true Immortal, and probably easier to kill than a naagloshii, sure. On the other hand, he returned from death at least once.

Kemmler would have succeeded, had his rite/spell been successful.

If he'd managed to do the complete Darkhallow, he would have been a true Immortal and at least as powerful as Mab, so yeah he could have crushed the White Council.

[Yuillegan]

That's a good point. I suspect it is also to do with the preparation for those fights. LtW won the round but wasn't sure he could actually kill it. WOJ is the Naagloshii just realised he couldn't easily win and wasn't prepared to risk losing. That's the kind of mentality that allows you to exist for millennia.

I agree with what you're saying about effectiveness though. The Ladies seem not really to have their power to be fighters...and they have a critical weakness to Cold Iron. They mostly don't seem to have the training to be truly dangerous. Harry sort of shows why that's such an important thing. He wins his fights because winning isn't easy for him. He has to prepare lots, plan, bring multiple tools and allies to fights and even pick the location and sometimes the time all to give him a chance. The Ladies are just used to using their raw power to overwhelm and don't really see Dresden as dangerous. The don't plan for what to do if he has iron or other advantages. I expect Molly to be far scarier than her predecessors just based on her experiences.

I suppose it's possible Kemmler at the height of his power (certainly not when he met Luccio) was stronger in raw power than any mortal wizard. Something interesting about Naagloshii is that they effectively ARE their own ley line, which might also be how they have their own intellectus (only for causing pain). I suspect that's how they disrupt other ley lines more than their raw power. You don't see Mab doing that and I doubt she would be worried about a Naagloshii. I suspect it is all to do with where they draw their power from and how they use it. Naagloshii are wasteful and obvious. I doubt Kemmler was. I suspect he was the worst and most terrifying traits of his apprentices combined, but much stronger. Harry barely could survive any one of the Heirs. Imagine all three at once but worse. I doubt even Eb would survive that. I actually wonder when the Merlin (Langtry) became the Merlin. Must have been after Fistful of Warlocks. So what happened to his predecessor? Or the others? Only Mai and Rashid are older...

Yeah I don't disagree. The sundering and consuming of spirits was the source of his magical strength (and I suspect) some forbidden knowlege. They tend to go hand in hand.

Yes, on the on hand he wasn't a true immortal. On the other hand he has this trick of coming back. There is a qualitative difference, I think. But effectively the main difference was the mechanism, but obviously the White Council learned how to stop him doing it. Otherwise he would be back by now...right?   

Yep, had he become a god he would have wiped the floor with everyone. But it seems like the bad guys (the Black Council) need a god or something on their side. Seems like a few times that has been a goal (to create a god) for their team. So I expect Cowl to try again. Or perhaps they have converted the Titan.

[Snark Knight]

So therefore we know that Kincaid has never actually fully dueled Ebenezar despite knowing he was the Blackstaff, and whatever went down between them.

Well, yeah. Kincaid's options in a conflict with Ebenezar are either murder from ambush, or run away. Given the armor enchantments Eb has on his clothing are much better than Harry's, it would take specialized weapons even by Kincaid's standards for a sniper attack to even stand a chance.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Eb even has counter measures for such attacks. Which isn't to say he is untouchable or overwhelmable. But don't think no one has tried the old assassination at a distance. Specialised weapons or perhaps anti-magic defences.

[Con]

The Dome Shield Harry had Molly use in Turn Coat, could theoretically stop a sniper bullet but you'd have to trigger it so know the attack is coming.

Otherwise Warded locations seem to be the best defense.

Even Marcone said Harry's apartment was the best defensive location in Chicago.

Anyway back to Kincaid. John Wick is probably the best modern analogy, he never misses, throws in a little martial arts, claims to be merely human.

One thing on the possible Devil Hound of Hell insinuation, Kincaid could be the scion of a Fallen Angel, not necessarily Lucifer or the Devil.

It would make a good family civil war of Small Favor, although admittedly if that was the case it would have been hinted at in Small Favor at the time. Family Drama is a common theme with Jim so it's probably just a WAG.