Author Topic: Chapter 4 Drop  (Read 22709 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2020, 06:31:06 PM »
@Mira: She wasn't born on US soil. Social Workers aren't always brought in for abuse cases. Any Svartelf jurisdiction probably won't be recognized by the US. That'd be an interesting thing to read to about.

Here is the law..
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A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother and a U.S. citizen father acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), if at least one of the parents resided in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person's birth.

Sounds to me like she is an American.

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She wasn't born on US soil. Social Workers aren't always brought in for abuse cases.

I believe you are totally wrong in this case.


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involving more than 6.6 million children (a referral can include multiple children). And less than half of child abuse cases will never be reported because neighbors, friends, and relatives are often too nervous or afraid to contact social services and stop the abuse. Some worry they will break the family apart, especially if they are wrong, while others fear retaliation from the abuser.

The reality is just the opposite:

    Reporting someone to social services is nothing to fear. The individual you report will never know that you are the one who made the call.
    Further, social services will not take any action against the person you report if they find no evidence of abuse or neglect. In fact, the report and the ensuing investigation will never become a part of the individual’s record.
    Likewise, social services will never remove a child from the home if your suspicions were incorrect.

  Harry so far is neither guilty of abuse nor neglect.  Social Services is ALWAYS involved if a minor is involved.
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Well for the US, Maggie doesn't appear to have any documentation.  Like a Social Security Number or a Birth Certificate.  DNA testing could confirm paternity.  And all of that presumes court proceedings to establish the facts.

She may have a Birth Certificate, we don't know that one way or the other.  As for a Social Security Number, that can be applied for, if I remember correctly we didn't get one for our adopted babies till they were a couple of years old.  Granted that was some time ago and the laws may have changed, but I don't think a baby automatically gets a soc number at birth.  DNA would establish who dad is..
Come to think of it, the Carpenters enrolled her in school, most likely it was Catholic School as opposed to public, but even so, the school would require a Birth Certificate as well as a Social Security Number.  I and my husband were both named as parents on both our son's Birth Certificates, though neither of us are their biological parents, they were adopted at birth.  I am sure there is a paper out there with the birth parents name on it, but as far as the law goes, we are their legal parents.  Father Forthill though his Church connections most likely could get a hold of the original, what ever it says.  He could also help in getting a Social Security number for her as well. It most likely was all perfectly legal, I cannot see Charity or Michael being a party to something illegally done, even by the Church.  So not that hard to get both Susan and Harry's name on little Maggie's Birth Certificate, most likely it was always on it.. From there the Social Security Number is just a matter of applying for it.
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In Blood Rites Eb pretty much puts the blame on himself for the way Maggie turned out.  But since Jim has baked in Choice as a primary plot device in the DF, Maggie always had one.  He also changed it up enough so that Harry turned out differently.

I know he did, but chapter 4 explains the origins of his problem with her I believe.  In Blood Rites Eb also told Harry he went easy on him when he lived with him because of the mistakes he made with Margaret being too strict.  In chapter 4 Eb comes out and says he didn't raise Margaret, sounds like he wasn't even around!  I don't know if you've had any experience with teenage kids or even preteen kids, but they have their own ideas about things to put it mildly.  I can just imagine Margaret's reaction when this powerful wizard shows up in her life after being missing from it for ten to fourteen years, when her talent exhibited.. Now he presumes to tell her more or less how to run her life, and makes her really toe the line.. Yeah, HUGE mistake, not as clear is whether or not he told her he was her father... Lead balloon time if he did, no wonder she rebelled and it didn't turn out well.
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Also as an aside, if you were raised in a dysfunctional family like me, this dialog rings true.  You know everything that can make the other person bleed and when things get hot you start launching missiles at weak spots.
Indeed, as I witnessed in the dynamic between my husband and his father and aunt.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:48:44 PM by Mira »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2020, 06:43:49 PM »
The gatekeeper can make the white council arrange the papers :)
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Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2020, 06:51:13 PM »
The gatekeeper can make the white council arrange the papers :)
True, he may be the godfather Harry didn't know he had! :o

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2020, 07:20:18 PM »
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A person born abroad in wedlock
Did I miss something? ::)

Since Harry is on other then good relations with the WC they probably won't help.  However since no official notice of her birth exists then the argument would be she was a US citizen since there is no record or her being anything else.  DNA would show Harry as the Daddy.  The problem would arise when she needs a record of birth to apply for a SS number.  But money can fix that. Of course this won't be an issue in the books.


Offline Dina

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2020, 08:25:02 PM »
 :) I can't imagine Harry being to happy with anyone taking his DNA either (yes, the test does not need blood, saliva is enough. But I bet is still good for a spel,unless until they mix it with other reagents)
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2020, 10:08:06 PM »
Did I miss something? ::)

Since Harry is on other then good relations with the WC they probably won't help.  However since no official notice of her birth exists then the argument would be she was a US citizen since there is no record or her being anything else.  DNA would show Harry as the Daddy.  The problem would arise when she needs a record of birth to apply for a SS number.  But money can fix that. Of course this won't be an issue in the books.

Okay, here is further proof
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A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. ... According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes..
Notice it said, U.S. citizen parent or parents... 
What is a CRBA you may ask?
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A Consular Report of Birth (CRBA) is evidence of United States citizenship issued to a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents who meet the requirements for transmitting citizenship under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).

Susan was an American Citizen at the time of little Maggie's birth...  I think that with his Church connections Father Forthill could have come up with enough evidence[such as Susan's passport] for a Consular Report of Birth for little Maggie so she'd have her passport and register for school.  Since she was going to school at the time of Ghost Story, this must be the case.
 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 10:14:36 PM by Mira »

Offline Vriah

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2020, 11:12:10 PM »
I feel like Maggie's citizenry is moot point anyway, since the only way Forthill could have gotten any kind of paperwork for her in a timely manner would have been to just forge the hell out of it. International adoption laws and citizenry laws are just way too complicated for it to take anything less than months to get Maggie greenlit in even the best of circumstances.  Plus, assuming Susan's name is even on the birth certificate (assuming there is a birth certificate - we literally have no idea under what circumstances Maggie was born), her goal in putting Maggie with a family was to hide her - and a paper trail with her name on it would have completely defeated the purpose. The smartest choice Susan could make in that situation would have been to forge a birth certificate with the adoptive parents' names on it.
And to further complicate things (please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've read Changes), but wasn't Maggie's adoptive family violently murdered? And then the child missing from the murder scene shows up in the US a few days later with no records of crossing borders?

Forget social workers, all someone would have to do is shine a light on how Maggie even got to the US in the first place, and Harry would be under immediate investigation from the FBI, CIA, and any other agency that investigates international crimes - for murder, kidnapping, and human trafficking at the least.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2020, 11:54:52 PM »
@Mira: Thanks for all the info. That's pretty helpful. :) Though I did know that social workers are called in by a matter of choice. But hey, I'm w/ Vriah at this point. It's moot. I figured it'd be an avenue baddies would try to exploit if they didn't want to get physical.

Forget social workers, all someone would have to do is shine a light on how Maggie even got to the US in the first place, and Harry would be under immediate investigation from the FBI, CIA, and any other agency that investigates international crimes - for murder, kidnapping, and human trafficking at the least.

And wouldn't officials still be trying to figure out/deal with what happened at Chicken Pizza? Would they be able to link Harry to that? I'm not sure how Harry would react to that beyond panic.

Offline Vriah

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2020, 12:31:08 AM »
And wouldn't officials still be trying to figure out/deal with what happened at Chicken Pizza? Would they be able to link Harry to that? I'm not sure how Harry would react to that beyond panic.
idk how I feel about Chichen Itza in that regard - it hasn't really been mentioned much beyond the vague warning of What Harry Is Willing To Do. Harry missed a year and can't exactly watch the news, so we have no idea how thousands of dead bodies appearing at an international monument played out with the authorities. Somewhere in the Dresden world, there's a cult of conspiracy theorists salivating over the 2012 Mayan Calendar Apocalypse who think they just struck gold. I also vaguely remember the implication that the site would be cleaned up magically, but again, it's been a while and I might be making things up.

If it wasn't cleaned up magically, and authorities are still looking for causes, Harry still wouldn't actually be easy to implicate. The only people who survived it as witnesses were on Harry's side, and he portaled there - he has solid alibis for being in Chicago only hours before and no records of travel. Implicating him in a kidnapping ring is easy enough when the evidence is a little girl literally living with him; implicating him in a massacre that happened half the world away with no trail to track him there is much less viable.

Offline knightedbishop

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2020, 12:31:42 AM »
Wow, we’ve really gone down the rabbit hole with this whole deal around citizenship and child welfare involvement!

I was adopted at birth. My biological parents were Colombian. I was born on American soil so I was an American citizen. Citizenship is either by blood or by soil in the US. Proving it is a whole different matter, and that may be easy or hard for Harry. He has a lot more friends to ask for help these days. If he asked I’m sure he’d get what he needed to demonstrate Maggie’s US citizenship.

As for child welfare involvement- I am a court appointed special advocate for foster youth, and I’ve worked with the foster system in multiple states. I can tell you that child welfare only gets involved when someone reports abuse or neglect. And then they only care about that issue. Not a child’s citizenship or immigration status. As long as Harry has Maggie’s basic needs met, no foster system is going to spend time and resources taking her away when they are a tragically high number of other cases where there is a real safety concern.

And woe betide any social worker who tries to remove Maggie from Harry’s home.

And as a shameless plug: court appointed special advocates (also called guardians ad litem in some states) are sorely needed. Maybe Harry would have had a better experience with someone advocating to the court on his behalf. It is super rewarding and low time commitment. I think everyone should do it and I’d be happy to point anyone to the organization for their local area!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 12:35:35 AM by knightedbishop »

Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2020, 12:48:28 AM »
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idk how I feel about Chichen Itza in that regard - it hasn't really been mentioned much beyond the vague warning of What Harry Is Willing To Do. Harry missed a year and can't exactly watch the news, so we have no idea how thousands of dead bodies appearing at an international monument played out with the authorities. Somewhere in the Dresden world, there's a cult of conspiracy theorists salivating over the 2012 Mayan Calendar Apocalypse who think they just struck gold. I also vaguely remember the implication that the site would be cleaned up magically, but again, it's been a while and I might be making things up.

Well, the White Council has a marvelous clean up crew..  Nothing was said after Sue went on her little rampage either.   

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2020, 12:51:48 AM »
I got a bad feeling about Eb's chances.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2020, 12:57:47 AM »
I feel like Maggie's citizenry is moot point anyway, since the only way Forthill could have gotten any kind of paperwork for her in a timely manner would have been to just forge the hell out of it. International adoption laws and citizenry laws are just way too complicated for it to take anything less than months to get Maggie greenlit in even the best of circumstances.  Plus, assuming Susan's name is even on the birth certificate (assuming there is a birth certificate - we literally have no idea under what circumstances Maggie was born), her goal in putting Maggie with a family was to hide her - and a paper trail with her name on it would have completely defeated the purpose. The smartest choice Susan could make in that situation would have been to forge a birth certificate with the adoptive parents' names on it.
And to further complicate things (please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've read Changes), but wasn't Maggie's adoptive family violently murdered? And then the child missing from the murder scene shows up in the US a few days later with no records of crossing borders?

Forget social workers, all someone would have to do is shine a light on how Maggie even got to the US in the first place, and Harry would be under immediate investigation from the FBI, CIA, and any other agency that investigates international crimes - for murder, kidnapping, and human trafficking at the least.

Point though it was never stated whether or not little Maggie was actually adopted by the family she lived with.  So Susan's name could still be on it, since she went to go visit her from time to time, it shows while she was sort of careful, she wasn't all that careful.  If she had wanted little Maggie to be totally safe she could have given her up at birth to an agency who could have placed her anywhere in the world where there are millions of childless couples waiting with loving arms for a baby.  She
didn't, so for all we know the family Maggie lived with were no more than glorified baby sitters, thus a child missing after the murder might not even have been noticed.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2020, 01:17:55 AM »
@Knightedbishop: Thanks for the info! It's super informative. :)
I didn't mean for things to go down such a rabbit hole when I just wanted to use an example lol!

Offline SerScot

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Re: Chapter 4 Drop
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2020, 03:53:02 AM »
I was pleased to see Harry call out Eb for leaving him in an orphanage.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

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