Chapter 4 Drop

[toodeep]

Not surprised he has issues with the svartalves. At this point I'd be surprised to hear of anyone McCoy doesn't have issues with.

Apparently he gets along well with the Kenku. 

Yes, this entire chapter seemed needlessly angry.  Harry has been dealing with these issues for years, so you would think he would have dealt with it better, and Eb is old enough to know how to have a civil conversation even over an emotional topic.  It seemed purposefully designed to allow them to meet, to drop a whole bunch of hooks, but not allow them to resolve any of the things they could resolve by just talking for 15 minutes like adults.  Obviously Eb will die before being able to tell him most of the things they should have discussed here.

[Mira]

Apparently he gets along well with the Kenku. 

Yes, this entire chapter seemed needlessly angry.  Harry has been dealing with these issues for years, so you would think he would have dealt with it better, and Eb is old enough to know how to have a civil conversation even over an emotional topic.  It seemed purposefully designed to allow them to meet, to drop a whole bunch of hooks, but not allow them to resolve any of the things they could resolve by just talking for 15 minutes like adults.  Obviously Eb will die before being able to tell him most of the things they should have discussed here.

  Actually I don't think Harry was needlessly angry.  Yes, he has been dealing with this for years, in pain for years, that doesn't go away just because you grow up.  Who got angry first here?  It was Eb who went on the attack.   Hey there are thousands of adults in therapy right now dealing with the same issues Harry is.  The answer is no, they don't go away, not easily.

And Harry wouldn't have been born and there would be no Dresden Files.  Which is all neither here nor there.  If his point was to get her to an age where she could protect herself then Eb achieved what he set out to do.

Really?   Perhaps if she had better support and guidance from her father from the get go, though maybe she would have been more physically vulnerable, but she may not have engaged in the behavior that eventually led to her death.   Something Eb said is really troublesome, he eluded to the idea that he would only be interested in her once she showed talent.  That fits with why young Harry was allowed to go into the orphanage/foster care system, at six he was too young to show talent.. 

This has nothing to do with blame or responsibility.  Any more then the Small Pox virus holds any moral responsibility because someone dies when exposed to the virus.  None the less, if you catch it you die. It is what it is.  Harry is a walking zone of death because of what he is.  He didn't choose to be that thing, but that doesn't change what he is.
Quote

A Small Pox virus isn't an emotional being either..   Harry is a human being, he lost both parents by the time he was six, that has left huge scars and questions...  Eb is telling him by the mere fact of being a live birth he is the cause of his mother's death! Which in of itself may not be true at all, Lord Raith may have done it simply because Margaret left him for a mere vanilla mortal man. 

All I said was that choosing to let Maggie control when she would choose to talk to Eb was a good choice.  Maybe.

Did he really have a choice?

Another point, Eb said if Harry had left Maggie with the Carpenters she'd be totally safe.. Not true, well protected, yes, but not totally safe.  We saw in Skin Game that mere mortals can enter their yard and pose a threat, I also seem to remember, after Proven Guilty, Harry was doing the snow ball thing with Molly at her house when they were attacked by beings from the Nevernever.

The proper way is probably to ask each other questions and listen to their explanations but that would give too much of the plot away. Now we will get all kinds of misunderstandings to drive the plot even further.

True, it would give too much of the plot away.. But also the asking and listening calmly bit takes
time, and sometimes outside help because we are not talking rationality here, we are talking emotions.  If we go back to the first books, the one thing dominating Harry's thoughts and color
a lot of what he does is the emotional pain he is in because he was orphaned at such a tender age.
He is then adopted, he did love and respect his adopted father, Justin.  What happened there?  Justin wanted to enslave him for his own purposes, Harry had to kill him to survive..  That kind of screws up trust don't you think?  Then he is taken in by Eb, who he idolizes only to find out in Blood Rites, that he'd been hiding a lot from him as well.. Finding out further down the road that this was his grandfather!  His grandfather who left him abandoned in a orphanage all those years..  It is enough to make anyone a bit pissed off, bewildered, and touchy on the subject of whether or not he was doing right by his own daughter.   No, it was perfectly normal for Harry to react as he did.

[Arjan]

The problem is unchecked emotions are dangerous for wizards. Both should have known better.

[Mira]

The problem is unchecked emotions are dangerous for wizards. Both should have known better.

  That is also very true,  I agree as far as Eb goes, he is older, while Harry should know better,
as victim I don't think he can completely help himself.  I've had a little experience with this from
my husband.  His mother died when he was nine months old, his father sent him and his brothers
and sisters to live with their maiden aunt in a small town in another state.  Reason being it was thought to be better for them there then living in a big city with their very busy father.  The father
visited once a year for hunting season.   On the surface this seems perfectly reasonable, and maybe it was.  However my husband's aunt, though she kept them fed, clothed, and gave them all very good moral values, couldn't demonstrate a lot of love.  To be fair, she and her brother grew up in a time when one didn't show a lot of emotion..  Nor, though he did ask plenty of questions, did my husband ever get any real honest answers..  Yes, we had a loving mostly happy marriage for over forty years until his death, but underneath, my husband was a very unhappy man.  He finally did begin to confront both his father and his aunt about it, it wasn't pretty to witness.  As an outsider
I can say maybe my father in law and his sister had very good reasons looking out for my husband's welfare.  However all my husband felt was years of pain over it, it was impossible for him to react calmly.

So one can argue that Eb may have had very rational and real reasons why he treated both Margaret and Harry the way he did.  Harry knows only the pain he felt and went through, the only way he can react is emotionally, especially when Eb is coming across not only with anger, but totally critical as well.  Let us not also forget that it isn't like Harry didn't agonize a bit before he made the decision he made about little Maggie.  Yeah, it was complicated, his guilt because he did kill her mother, but also because he knows he is a trouble magnet. 

[EBRIEN]

A thought about the title...

Perhaps PEACE TALKS is not only the Fomor and Accords, but also about healing a rift between Harry and Eb. Or something like that. I'm sure someone's discussed it, but it seems to me that after this chapter (and previous ones), family is going to be one of the throughlines connecting PT with BG. I know, obvious.

Cheers---Brien

[123Chikadee]

@knightedbishop: Yeah I think it's how he dies that counts. Oh, yeah that's also a good point that Eb could be the cause of the schism. I like how it shows growth on Harry's part but I do think its more of a point that Harry leads a pretty dangerous life and that won't stop anytime soon. I'm not sure just how safe Maggie will be tbh.

@Dina: I don't think people will come after Harry so direct after this, if they do it's b/c they are unleashing him and they found a way to make sure he'll be too enraged to think about what/how he's doing things.

@Yuillegan: Yeah I see what you mean. I'm glad you're thinking more critically than me. I wouldn't have caught this. The secrecy on the BC is usually well reasoned but it gets to point where nothing could get done if people didn't compare notes on some scale. Or at least found/invented a way to detect it/their signature, what have you.
Hm, I think that Harry's need for family is overriding his common sense. I know he's saying that Maggie needs a dad but what she needs is safety and I'm not entirely convinced that he can provide that. I mean, sure, he can physically repel enemies but when you've got someone like Lara as an enemy, well she won't go for an obvious move.  But I think Harry's projecting a little, and this is why he talks about Eb not being able to protect Maggie Sr.
That's a good idea about Michael setting such a standard and yeah Harry doesn't really want to stop doing what he's doing. Maybe a part of learning all this stuff the hard way is taking Maggie(and Mouse) somewhere else. B/c by the time Harry realizes that he he'd have to choose between saving the world or being a parent, it'll be too late. Eb getting killed is just icing on the cake.
I think Susan's plan to keep Maggie safe would have worked if she hadn't gotten involved in Maggie's life.  I think Harry's choices will make it worse for Maggie. Eb's line about putting aside personal feelings could well be foreshadowing for that.

@CrusherJen: Yeah probably.
 
@Arjan: Yeah sometimes the conflict is a little too forced. That whole time I was just wondering why they didn't go back inside to have that conversation, like, people can see you.

@EBRIEN: I hope so. I like hurt/comfort but I like the latter more.

[Mira]

Hm, I think that Harry's need for family is overriding his common sense. I know he's saying that Maggie needs a dad but what she needs is safety and I'm not entirely convinced that he can provide that. I mean, sure, he can physically repel enemies but when you've got someone like Lara as an enemy, well she won't go for an obvious move.  But I think Harry's projecting a little, and this is why he talks about Eb not being able to protect Maggie Sr.

Point is though, there is no place where little Maggie is going to be completely safe.  As I pointed out Michael's place is vulnerable to ordinary humans and to those from the Nevernever, so if someone really wanted her, they could take her.  To grow emotionally and mentally healthy, Maggie also has to live as normal a life as possible, that means she cannot be a prisoner of Michael's place.  She was going to school for example, now she does have a big Foo dog as her protector, that is about as good as it gets.  It looks like there is pretty good security from the elves where she is at now, Mouse protects her, and Harry can be there as dad.

[123Chikadee]

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that being with Harry doesn't make her safer and could in fact, do the opposite. I read a review/recap of 'Christmas Eve' that helped me, b/c it had math/timelines to figure out and from there I could think of a non-violent example for things. With those dates, 'Changes' took place in 2008 and 'Christmas Eve' either takes place in 2011 or 2014. (Which means the youngest Maggie can be is 11 and 14 at the oldest).
And my example is that b/c Maggie has been illegally adopted, as  Guatemala closed its doors to international adoption in 2008, and despite whatever paperwork Father Forthill did to arrange things, the fact that Maggie is there unlawfully doesn't change. If a baddie like Lara wanted to use mortal resources to use mortal authorities to take Maggie away they could.

I'm not sure how healthy it is for Maggie to be raised by the man who killed her birth mother.     

For anyone who's curious about the timelines or just want a look: (https://anagnorisisawakening.dreamwidth.org/4043.html)

[Mira]

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that being with Harry doesn't make her safer and could in fact, do the opposite. I read a review/recap of 'Christmas Eve' that helped me, b/c it had math/timelines to figure out and from there I could think of a non-violent example for things. With those dates, 'Changes' took place in 2008 and 'Christmas Eve' either takes place in 2011 or 2014. (Which means the youngest Maggie can be is 11 and 14 at the oldest).
And my example is that b/c Maggie has been illegally adopted, as  Guatemala closed its doors to international adoption in 2008, and despite whatever paperwork Father Forthill did to arrange things, the fact that Maggie is there unlawfully doesn't change. If a baddie like Lara wanted to use mortal resources to use mortal authorities to take Maggie away they could.

I'm not sure how healthy it is for Maggie to be raised by the man who killed her birth mother.     

For anyone who's curious about the timelines or just want a look: (https://anagnorisisawakening.dreamwidth.org/4043.html)

  Illegally adopted by whom?  Harry is her biological father, is a formal adoption required for custody? Technically  when Harry killed her, Susan was no longer Susan, she was the youngest Red Court Vamp, otherwise the spell reversal would not have worked.  Father Forthill may not have had to pull any strings, since there is no evidence that the Carpenters formally adopted her.  Also since both her parents were American citizens, little Maggie was one as well, so I don't think Guatemala would have
much say.  I don't recall it being said that she had been formally adopted or otherwise by the family she spent her first years with.

[Dina]

Ok, this is just my opinion, but I believe is too late for granting Maggie's safety. The supernatural work knows she exists, she will be in danger anyway. So, you can take precautions to have her as safe as possible but the girl needs more that physical security, she needs love. So, given that no place is 100% safe, why not give her the chance to be "as safe as possible" with her dad? Gosh, I so want them to live in a real home with a real threshold, but for now, the place she currently is is quite safe. Yes, this is a JB Butcher, so Maggie will probably be in danger in some point of the book, but in universe, what Harry says is rational enough. And as Mira said, he has emotional reasons to react to Eb they way he did, even when he said hurtful things that he shouldn't. Eb was hurtful himself, very much and treating Harry as a kid.
And yes, as many have said, the conflict feels at least a little forced but I am so happy because at least they talked.
Oh, another little thing, have you noticed how Maggie, even when scared and feeling it was her fault that Harry and Eb got mad, never really seemed to be scared of Harry? I am sure that kid loves her dad, so now you cannot ask her to be apart from him. She is not a baby anymore, and I am sure she wants to be with Harry.

[123Chikadee]

The Carpenters, more or less. In that time Guatemala of the 1980's and 90's, there were plenty of wealthy foreigners buying or outright kidnapping children to the point where the Guatemalan government closed its doors on international adoption so that its system could be reformed.

The US State Dept announced that it wouldn't allow for anymore adoptions until Guatemala's adoption procedures were fully Hague compliant, with only a handful of agencies allowed to do so and only after social services tried tried to find a home for the child in their own family or community.

To quote the recap, "Furthermore, international adoptions involve federal oversight, state oversight, passports, visas, hearings, documentation, admission quotas, and social workers checking to see about living space and family finances, and take, oh, about a year to two years to finalize."

{... }"And once she was in Chicago, the Carpenters went to Father Forthill at St. Mary of the Angels and asked him to arrange for them to adopt her -- exactly the type of private international adoption that, by the time of Changes, was no longer allowed by Guatemala or the United States"

So yeah, I would say yes formal adoption would be required. I'm not sure what arrangements Susan made but Maggie was placed with the Mendozas'. Even if it wasn't 'formal' adoption, they'd still have to put something on Maggie's information, so it's a safe bet that she does have Guatemalan citizenship.

Maggie's parents citizenship doesn't matter in this case, as she wasn't living with them. Harry didn't even know she existed and I don't think he'd even be listed as the father on her birth certificate. He's only known her for about a year as well. I don't know how many, if any parental rights he'd have under the law.

@Dina: Oh def that was a rough convo for Eb and Harry. I liked but yeah, that was hard to read. I do hope they get to talk more. They both need it.Yeah, I've been thinking on that too. On safe as possible, that ship may have sailed but...I dunno I just don't feel that comfy with that since all the really dangerous opponents like the WCV, the Denarians, and the Winter Court know about her and really there's only so much Harry(and his allies) can do to keep her safe. And yeah, no place is going to be 100% safe but that's still a pretty big jump to go from there to literal monsters trying to kill/torture/gaslight/etc you.

Right! Poor Maggie. She does need the best but I'm just worried that Harry might not be able to give it to her no matter how much he loves her.

 

[Dina]

As I reader, I would love nothing more than to see Maggie protected in magical tower a la Rapunzel, far, far away from Harry. But in universe, I think Harry is doing the best that he can about her and Eb would need to accept it. Of course, he probably won't have the time.

Maggie herself is probably going to have a voice soon. She may be scared and have social issues but, as she is Susan and Harry's child, I am pretty sure she is stubborn as a brick wall. I bet she will want to be with Harry.

[123Chikadee]

Well sometimes kids have to be separated from their parents for their own safety unfortunately.

[morriswalters]

I question what Jim is trying to accomplish with Maggie. When daddies throwing fireballs at monsters where does the child go?  Daycare for wizards? 

[Mira]

The Carpenters, more or less. In that time Guatemala of the 1980's and 90's, there were plenty of wealthy foreigners buying or outright kidnapping children to the point where the Guatemalan government closed its doors on international adoption so that its system could be reformed.

If Maggie was Guatemalan, but she wasn't, born in Guatemala maybe, but her parents were both American, that makes her a natural born American.

{... }"And once she was in Chicago, the Carpenters went to Father Forthill at St. Mary of the Angels and asked him to arrange for them to adopt her -- exactly the type of private international adoption that, by the time of Changes, was no longer allowed by Guatemala or the United States"

It wasn't an international adoption, little Maggie was always American.

Maggie's parents citizenship doesn't matter in this case, as she wasn't living with them. Harry didn't even know she existed and I don't think he'd even be listed as the father on her birth certificate. He's only known her for about a year as well. I don't know how many, if any parental rights he'd have under the law.

Oh parents claim rights all of the time, or rather it happens.   Especially when babies are adopted, the mother gives the child up, but the father at the time cannot be found.  Some have come back even a few years later to demand their parental rights.  Now that maybe reformed, but oddly blood matters more than nurturing..  Also it isn't clear that little Maggie was formally adopted by the family she lived with, they may have merely fostered her.  Actually I cannot see Susan giving her baby up for adoption, if she had, the Red King might not have been able to trace her.  Whether Harry's name is on the birth certificate or not, there is something called a DNA test.

Well sometimes kids have to be separated from their parents for their own safety unfortunately.

Yes, but not as often as they should.  However in those cases they need a lot of proof that the parent is harming the child.  There is no proof that Harry is abusing her nor that she is in danger where she is living.  Also I doubt that the Carpenters would have allowed her to go and live with Harry if they felt she was in danger by doing so.