Peace Talks: Who are the signatories of the Accords?

[Yuillegan]

We learn in the first chapter of Peace Talks that every major Power is showing up and/or sending representatives. We know Ferrovax will make an appearance. Will Drakul? Or is Mavra his representative?

There is also another Dragon (Pyrovax?), the Archive (who we know just fired Kincaid and will be in attendance), Vadderung (or at least Monoc Securities representing him), a semi-immortal shapeshifter guru in the Ukraine and several others.

In order:
1. The Unseelie Court
2. The Seelie Court
3. Vadderung
4. Ferrovax
5. Pyrovax
6. The Archive
7. Shapeshifter Guru (could be Goodman Grey)
8. The White Council
9. The Red Court (formally)
10. The White Court
11. The Black Court (unclear)
12. The Knights of the Blackened Denarius (unclear if still)
13. The Jade Court (possibly)
14. Marcone (as of the end of White Night/beginning of Small Favor)
15. The Fomor
16. The Svartalves

This leaves about 4 to 7 other signatories that will have a presence at the Peace Talks. Can anyone guess the others?

Beyond that, what does everyone think about representatives showing up?

I am hoping Drakul will show up myself but wouldn't be surprised if we only get another mention and he sends an Emissary. Will we see a Jade Court rep? And who will the Fomor send? Cantrev Lord Omogh? King Corb? The Empress herself?

Thoughts?

[Con]

I've never connected Goodman Grey with the Shapeshifting Guru, I like it as a WAG.

The Black Court I'm pretty sure were signatories before the Black Court Purge. Mavra obeys the laws of hospitality and keeps her Word. Bianca's Red Court Ball was an Accord event, Mavra was an honored guest. Plus at their peak according to WOJ the Elders together could take on Mab they were that powerful

The Denarians are ex members of the Accords. Small Favour they broke the accords by going after the neutral representative The Archive. Skin Game was Mab getting revenge for it. Nick's broken his word. Harry does a whole speech on it.

Your also forgetting the Wyld Fae and there independent fiefdoms. I think the Erlking would have to be a member even if by default only because he has nominal loyalty to Titania, but his realm is independent enough that Harry invoking Mabs name 3 times could have started a war.

Jade Court, Shiro references them having organised Duels with them. It was specifically in response to Harry asking about the Accords Duel. However Jim says they're very isolationists, don't even like the concept of 'chin'so could go either way.

Where's the 4 to 7 other signatories come from? Do we have a number on the amount of signatories?

[Yuillegan]

There is scant information on a slavic shapeshifter, so it's the best I can do for now. I might find something later and post it. Jim wouldn't have thrown the name in if he didn't intend it for something. But Goodman as the Guru somehow makes sense, despite his Navajo origins. Although if it is in fact Goodman...I would associate him with Simon or Drakul perhaps. That would be concerning.

Indeed, the Black Court (and now the Red Court as well) were signatories before their destruction. One has to wonder though if being destroyed voids your commitment. In Harry's case it certainly didn't. So I would think Mavra is still signed on. As would any other surviving Red Court vampire. But I guess we'll see.

The really interesting case is the Denarians. I would think as they are repeat offenders of breaking the rules (and Nicodemus seems to represent them) they might be off the Accords. I get what you're saying about them being punished. But they weren't explicitly kicked out. Something to be aware of is that they were not kicked out for breaking the laws of hospitality or such, but specifically for breaking Mab's own Accords. Repeatedly. Mab was sending a message. But as far as I can tell they were not actually expelled.

Ah yes. The Wyld Fae. I am not certain they are actually members of the Accords. But there is no reason for them not to be either. So I will hedge that any of the "independent" rulers of the Wyld (Kringle, the Erlking etc) are indeed members. What's really interesting is something like Vadderung who is both Kringle and himself (and possibly other personas). Are they all separate members of the Accords?

Carlos says everyone is sending representatives. And Jim did say we might see a hint of Jade one day. So I am going to keep an eye out. It probably will be a subtle appearance. But you are quite right that the Jade Court would be members.

My mistake, in White Knight Harry says there are roughly 20 Freeholding Lords under the Accords. So I have mixed things up. The impression is every major supernatural power is a part of the accords.

So in reality, it's more like 15 other Freeholding Lords. And who knows how many other organisations.

[g33k]

... The really interesting case is the Denarians. I would think as they are repeat offenders of breaking the rules (and Nicodemus seems to represent them) they might be off the Accords. I get what you're saying about them being punished. But they weren't explicitly kicked out. Something to be aware of is that they were not kicked out for breaking the laws of hospitality or such, but specifically for breaking Mab's own Accords. Repeatedly. Mab was sending a message. But as far as I can tell they were not actually expelled ...

I can't cite the source, but I believe Nick has lost Accorded status.

There's a question as to whether each Denarian is separately signatory, or if they were signatory as a group.

I presume, if Nick is out, that all of the Denarians who were active on that mission are also out; and if Nick signed as the "head" of the group, then they're ALL outside the Accords now (unless one or more of them have re-joined as independents).

Ivy would know, if they signed.  I do NOT expect she would be happy about that!.
 

... any other surviving Red Court vampire.

I think a group of Ramps could have survived if they were out in the far reaches of the Nevernever, beyond reach of the spells cast in the Real World.  A sunrise or three would purge it enough to be safe.  Although with the Red King and the LoON's out of the picture, all those Ramps would be lesser powers.

But there's another thing:  the Ramps inside the flesh-mask were something completely other.  Is there a race of nevernever beings, who never came to the world to Rampire-ize here?  The Ick seemed to be of the same sort, with a rubbery black body...

So there's at least 2 ways Jim could play "Return of the Ramps;" I presume there are others.

... Ah yes. The Wyld Fae. I am not certain they are actually members of the Accords. But there is no reason for them not to be either. So I will hedge that any of the "independent" rulers of the Wyld (Kringle, the Erlking etc) are indeed members. What's really interesting is something like Vadderung who is both Kringle and himself (and possibly other personas). Are they all separate members of the Accords?

I am pretty sure all of Faerie are members of the Accords.  Mab will have insisted the "independent" rulers sign, and she'd just have said "All you others, without any oaths of fealty or alleigance to a greater power -- you ARE bound by the Accords, and I will personally punish you for violating them."

My best guess is that it was part of setting things up when Winter took over the Outer Gates.
 

[Bad Alias]

As to all the beings who obey things like the laws of hospitality, that may have nothing to do with the Accords. I believe the Accords are described as the Geneva Convention{s} of the supernatural world. The Geneva Conventions are largely a codification of preexisting norms of how warfare should be conducted that have been specifically agreed to, or not, by various nations. International law is way older than the Geneva Conventions. The laws of hospitality, or other supernatural norms, may be in the Accords because they predate them and it was easy to get most supernatural nations to sign on to those provisions.

While practicing the norms in the Accords suggests that one is a member, it doesn't necessitate it. For example, Shiro has participated in many duels. He was familiar with the Accorded process. The Knights are not members of the Accords.

I can't cite the source, but I believe Nick has lost Accorded status.

I think it's explicitly stated in SG, but it might just be implied.

But there's another thing:  the Ramps inside the flesh-mask were something completely other.  Is there a race of nevernever beings, who never came to the world to Rampire-ize here? 

Their skeletons remain behind after being killed, so they are at least in part natives to the real world.

[knightedbishop]

From Skin Game, chapter 51:

“Marcone is not someone to cross lightly,” I said. “Not only that, but he’s a member of the Accords.”
“I’m not,” Nicodemus said. “Not any longer.”

Nic declared he is not a member of the Accords. He didn’t say we, which would indicate all of the Denarians. Clearly he and Tessa were on the outs over this mission- Tessa didn’t want to lose Deidre (though it didn’t seem to be out of any sense of love, but rather unwillingness to lose the asset she had cultivated).

The Fallen are big deals on their own. I wouldn’t be surprised if the smarter ones who have been active since the Accords came into being signed on individually. They certainly have the chops to do so.

[g33k]

On the thread,  "Peace Talks: Who are the signatories of the Accords?"  a Rampire subtopic has arisen, which I pull to a new thread because I think it's a substantive digression... plus, I was already thinking of launching a Ramp thread!  I began this as a Reply" in that thread, but then thought to spin it off... so I just re-titled my "Reply" post, partly to see if this will launch a new thread (edit -- I see it just re-titles, but keeps it in-thread).

... Their skeletons remain behind after being killed, so they are at least in part natives to the real world.

Excellent point!

But... maybe that's just the ones who were humans that got turned?  Maybe the basic creature has some sort of "natural" (never human) existence, native to the Nevernever?  Rampires, after all, mostly cannot stand daylight, which is usually a sign of a Nevernever-sourced creature (a few of the oldest/strongest could do it sheltering within a fleshmask).

Also, the black & rubbery substance and flesh of the Ick seems to have been the same sort as the black & rubbery "natural form" of the Ramp's.  Was the Ick some sort of ... I dunno, Ramp Gorilla or Grizzly-Bear?  Or was the Ick a summoned Neverneverian beastie?
 

[Snark Knight]

Drakul is probably one of the more interesting freeholding lords for potential insight into the bigger world-building, both for his connection to the black court through Dracula and potentially also the Outsiders. A representative would be a bit of a letdown, unless Kincaid has returned to his employ (which I kind of doubt).

And the Blamps are still technically members. I recall Harry narrating at some point that one of the reasons many clued people are reluctant to sign on to the Accords is that they don't want the obligation to be a good host to things like a blampire.

[g33k]

...
And the Blamps are still technically members. I recall Harry narrating at some point that one of the reasons many clued people are reluctant to sign on to the Accords is that they don't want the obligation to be a good host to things like a blampire.

Yeah.

I'm expecting Mavra to show up at Peace Talks.  She was apparently a pretty potent warlock...

Then Harry gave her the Word of Kemmler, noting that it gives all sorts of power over Blampires.

So we'll be seeing Queen Mavra, with a united Black Court behind her.  And Blampires can spread themselves really quickly.  So they could be much more powerful -- assuming Mavra kept them disciplined and discreet -- than anybody expects.

[Con]

Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up.

 I also speculate from information in Paranet Papers, that they might have both been allies and an enemy of Kemmler. The Black Court Purge started around 1899 according to Simon Pietrovichs letters, by the time of the Russian Revolution the last strongholds were holding out against the Purge. Kemmler could have used them both as a desperate ally and as an enemy against his own power growth. Not dissimmilar to how Nicodemus viewed the Red Court, which he explained during Small Favour.

We also have WOJ confirmation the White Court helped with the dissemination of Bram Strokers book. Kind of a reverse Venatori campaign. (Side Note. I have an RPG Character who I wrote in being critical to that for Paranet Papers)

[g33k]

Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up ...

Well then, they should be fine...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

[Arjan]

Part of the Black Court weaknessess in addition to everyone knowing how to kill them, WOJ is that they power up by killing. The smart ones wait for Plagues and Wars to power up.

 I also speculate from information in Paranet Papers, that they might have both been allies and an enemy of Kemmler. The Black Court Purge started around 1899 according to Simon Pietrovichs letters, by the time of the Russian Revolution the last strongholds were holding out against the Purge. Kemmler could have used them both as a desperate ally and as an enemy against his own power growth. Not dissimmilar to how Nicodemus Said he viewed the Red Court, which he explained during Small Favour.

We also have WOJ confirmation the White Court helped with the dissemination of Bram Strokers book. Kind of a reverse Venatori campaign. (Side Note. I have an RPG Character who I wrote in being critical to that for Paranet Papers)

A little correction here. Nothing Nicodemus says can be taken as true. In this case he was trying to recruit Harry so of course he lied.

[g33k]

A little correction here. Nothing Nicodemus says can be taken as true.  In this case he was trying to recruit Harry ...

While while you are absolutely correct...

... so of course he lied.

This does not follow from the prior.

We don't actually know; Nic may have been lying, or not.

Nic cannot be  relied upon  to lie; he isn't one of those automatons from the old logic-puzzles, that is so predictable.  He lies when it suits his purpose, and tells the truth when that suits his purpose.

I am perfectly willing to believe that Nic found the Ramps to be more often a nuisance methan an asset, and would readily offer them up as  bargaining chip; particularly if he could -- like a stock trader with "insider knowledge" -- gain special benefit from his advance warning.  He may have been being perfectly truthful.

Recall that Lasciel's Shadow (long before "Lash" became an ally of Harry's) was entirely willing to be helpful and truthful, as part of tempting Harry to take up a coin.

Really, Nic saying something is hardly ever an indication, either way, of whether that thing is true or false.

[Arjan]

While while you are absolutely correct...
 This does not follow from the prior.

We don't actually know; Nic may have been lying, or not.

Nic cannot be  relied upon  to lie; he isn't one of those automatons from the old logic-puzzles, that is so predictable.  He lies when it suits his purpose, and tells the truth when that suits his purpose.

I am perfectly willing to believe that Nic found the Ramps to be more often a nuisance methan an asset, and would readily offer them up as  bargaining chip; particularly if he could -- like a stock trader with "insider knowledge" -- gain special benefit from his advance warning.  He may have been being perfectly truthful.

Recall that Lasciel's Shadow (long before "Lash" became an ally of Harry's) was entirely willing to be helpful and truthful, as part of tempting Harry to take up a coin.

Really, Nic saying something is hardly ever an indication, either way, of whether that thing is true or false.

Except when he is saying something to influence you it is always safer to assume he is lying. He may use truth to build up to something but the crucial thing is a lie. There is no reason to assume Nicodemus is even interested in the reds that much. They are not part of his story and the suffering they cause can only help him. But there is all reason for Nicodemus to make Harry think he can be an ally against Harry’s most Important and hated enemy at that time. He probably knows about Susan and Harry so his statements about the reds are too much in line with what Harry wants. If something is too good to be true it is probably false.

[Yuillegan]

Arjan, that might be your theory. But it is conjecture. You can't prove Nicodemus was lying because there is no evidence to say he was/is working with the Red Court. So best to stick to facts or qualify your statements e.g. Nicodemus was probably lying because...[Evidence A]. Saying an absolute statment outright (like Nicodemus lied when...) when you don't qualify or provide evidence is both poor argument and derails the conversation.

Which isn't to say that he might have lied when attempting to recruit Harry. But as I outline in my other thread, https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53453.0.html, I think Nicodemus would benfit greatly from the destruction of the Red Court. As would several other villains.

"If something is too good to be true, it is probably false" is a really strange argument to make in the setting of the Dresden Files. Michael Carpenter is "too good to be true" as is Uriel, Heaven etc. Are you saying that they don't exist or that they are in fact evil?

Con - that's an interesting theory. I quite like it. I wonder though if the White Court also used the opportunity to get rid of Kemmler etc as he was a threat in the long term.

G33k - I would be surprised if she became Queen Mavra. I think that would have been noticed by now. And something tells me that the Darkhallow is only open to mortals - other supernatural's would have to use different means I think. I can't back that up...but it feels right. Something to do with the Hecatean Hags in Welcome to the Jungle. But even if so, I think Mavra is the proxy or servant (or both) for a being far greater. My guess is Drakul. But whoever it is, I think they wanted the Word of Kemmler and now they have it. Who knows why.

Snark Knight - I quite agree. I am thoroughly hoping we seen him on stage in the next book or two. But if we don't I would say that he is a seriously major player...maybe bigger than the Mothers. Word is Jim is saving the really big characters for the trilogy (like the Devil etc). Then again, Uriel has already shown up. So I am hopeful. And yes, in White Knight I think Harry mentions that most people don't want to be Freeholding Lords when they realise that they might have to host a Blampire etc. So only the really powerful ones even bother. Which makes Marcone very special.