Author Topic: Power Creep  (Read 12990 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Power Creep
« on: May 31, 2020, 08:54:31 AM »
Over in the "What do you look forward to in Peace Talks?" thread, the discussion has moved to Harry getting a power up. It made me think of what's often described as power creep in the Dresden Files. I think creep is very apropos for Harry's gaining of power because it mostly happens pretty slowly. It creeps on up in a way that's hard to point to.

While he doesn't get a power up every book, he's almost always more powerful in at least one way. Usually a noticeable way. He's often also less powerful in some way. Usually less notable. Occasionally, he's significantly more powerful or significantly less powerful in an obvious way.

It's generally subtle from book to book, but Harry seems more powerful each book. He gets more foci. He gets a bigger gun every four books or so. His fuego spell gets tighter and tighter. I think it's first described as "as big around as my hips" to eventually being "as big as my two fingers." Occasionally we get big steps forward like in BR, when Harry has enchanted his duster and gets Hellfire.

Outline of Harry's power progression that I can recall:
(click to show/hide)
What am I missing and when did it happen? Thoughts on "power creep" in the Dresden Files?

Offline Mira

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2020, 01:12:02 PM »

  If course Harry is getting more powerful, he is the star child, by the BAT he has to be a real bad ass otherwise he won't have a chance against the Outsiders.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2020, 03:02:43 PM »
  If course Harry is getting more powerful, he is the star child, by the BAT he has to be a real bad ass otherwise he won't have a chance against the Outsiders.
He smashed them down in Cold Days. Because his power was not his magic, but his mind.

So suggests to me his key powerup will be knowledge, as Odin alluded to.

Offline Mira

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2020, 04:53:46 PM »
He smashed them down in Cold Days. Because his power was not his magic, but his mind.

So suggests to me his key powerup will be knowledge, as Odin alluded to.

  Of course, that too.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 08:22:49 PM »
If your interested here is a video discussing something similar to this. Somewhere around 19 minutes in.

Penguin Worlds Book Club: Jim Butcher in conversation with Patrick Rothfuss

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 09:07:13 PM »
@Avernite: Good observation. An example of how Harry leverages knowledge to great effect is his utilization of the Little Folk. Knowing what they're capable allows Harry to use them for all sorts of stuff that heavily pays off. Mostly it's for knowledge.

@Morris: Yeah, but that's much more about how an author should handle power creep. The answer is have a plan. It's simple, obvious, and often ignored. I'm more interested in looking at it from a doylist perspective, mapping his progress, predictions about where he's going or where the power ups are going to come from (like Avernite's prediction of knowledge), etc.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 09:46:45 PM »
Then his Mothers ruby.  In Blood Rites she gives Harry knowledge.  While that may have been about what she had done to Raith she may have left him another legacy hidden in the Never Never.  Sooner or later he has to learn what is what and who is who.  And one way to do that would be for Margaret to have had a redoubt in the Never Never such as Rashid's.  Maybe she kept a diary, or, for those time travel aficionados, maybe a way to travel back in time to meet her. If your gonna use time travel then you can do all kinds of weird things.  So instead of going back and kicking Eb's butt he could go back and hug momma.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2020, 10:28:13 PM »
A couple of subtler things:
Man's magical workout training preceding Cold Days. Harry gets better physically but also magically learns to not needs his foci as much.

Training with Molly - he re-examines his basic knowledge and refines it. He gets better at mental defence and assault.

He had potions and foci in the early books (SF to BR)

Thomas went from occasional ally to brother. Lara becomes a sometimes ally, as does Marcone. He gains the support of Vadderung openly. There are others such as Ivy, Kincaid, Uriel etc that seem to be backing him.

He occasionally invents or uses something new like the electrical chain or his sword cane.

And now he has the artifacts (read: weapons) of the Christ. There is an argument to say his possession of the Spear of Destiny may have been what gave him and his allies victory against the Denarians.

I also think being a "ghost" taught him a bit about that world that he didn't understand, and his ectomancy will have improved.

Also something intangible over the series is how scary he becomes to his enemies. He isn't really very scary to anyone in book 1. But now he is really something to worry about, a destroyer of nations and demigods. That impression, that reputation is a very real weapon in his arsenal and armour against his foes.

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Offline Wolfeyes

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2020, 12:16:30 AM »
Agree with the point that Harry's key powerups comes in the form of knowledge.

I think the powercreep in the series has largely been balanced by the acknowledgement that while Harry has a lot of raw power, he didn't have the finesse other wizards had. He didn't have a reason to lean into learning more about veils and the basics until he started teaching Molly and having powerups like the Winter Knight mantle have forced him to learn how to use it so it doesn't chew up his soul. He's getting more power but he's mostly learning *how* to use it beyond just how to make a bigger fire. And that's what he needs to keep up with the heavy hitting characters in the series since they not only have power but the means to use it.

It reminds me of what Jim's said about Bonnie. Sure Bonnie has a lot of knowledge but she doesn't know how to use it properly yet compared to Bob. She needs knowledge and experience, much like Harry's been getting.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 12:18:11 AM by Wolfeyes »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2020, 01:52:27 AM »
@Morris: I really want some pay off from the ruby. It was instrumental in Chances and mentioned in CD. It's too powerful to just shelve. I know Jim often sets these things aside for several books, but (whiny voice) I want it now.

A couple of subtler things:
Mab's magical workout training preceding Cold Days. Harry gets better physically but also magically learns to not needs his foci as much.

...

He occasionally invents or uses something new like the electrical chain...

Also something intangible over the series is how scary he becomes to his enemies. He isn't really very scary to anyone in book 1. But now he is really something to worry about, a destroyer of nations and demigods. That impression, that reputation is a very real weapon in his arsenal and armour against his foes.
That's a good point. It's hard to quantify his increase in control. It's obvious and larger in CD, but it also happens in every book. If I was to quantify it by, for example, saying Harry gets plus 1 control in a typical book and plus 3 in CD, I know I'd be wrong, and I'd know people would miss the point and argue that not only was I most definitely wrong, but some different number is clearly and obviously right. In fact, I half expect it to happen based on that sentence.

I didn't even try to put in new foci that only show up in one book or were already present in SF. I pretty much ignored everything that happened and was resolved in one book like Harry losing fire magic in SmF. I'm sure all that stuff would affect his "character sheet," by making him better at handling those situations and crafting items in the future, but it's extremely hard to quantify.

Changes, plus 10 to Reputation.  ;)

@Wolfeyes: I would distinguish between knowledge and experience using knowledge.  Harry has knowledge or gains it, then he must learn how to use it. He normally learns to use it through experience.

Offline Con

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2020, 06:27:13 AM »
The one spell that seems to be on the increase the most is Shield spell
1. Physical objects.
2. To being able to defend against fire.
3. Uses it effectively in the Raith Deeps duel in white night.
4. Uses it against the Denarians, noticebly goes up against Thorned Namshiels 6 or 7 'wave lengths attack.'
5. Naagloshi uses a similar 'wave length attack'only Harry defends against all of the different attacks.
6. Duel with Arianna, and the Battle of Chitzchen Itza.
7. Mab trains him so he doesn't even need the Shield Bracelet. Defends against the Summer Knight.
8. Redirects Hannah Aschers Fire Spell with ease.

Offline noblehunter

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2020, 02:29:19 PM »
I like how Butcher has Harry level up in response to the pressures he's under. He gets better at blowing things up because of the war; he gets better at subtle work because he needs to teach Molly. I wouldn't be surprised if his hermit period trying to find a cure for vampirism laid the foundations for his later improvements in enchanting.

I don't remember, does he beef up his duster in response to almost getting sniped in the Michael short story?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2020, 08:12:25 PM »
I don't remember, does he beef up his duster in response to almost getting sniped in the Michael short story?
The only thing I recall being mentioned about him improving the spells on his duster is how long they last. In Changes, he thinks about how they last 6 months, but he thinks he's figured out how to push that to a year.

Offline TrueMonk

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2020, 09:31:06 PM »
I would when he becomes the custodian of the swords.

Also his necromancy crash course :-)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Power Creep
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 03:09:58 AM »
I would when he becomes the custodian of the swords.

Also his necromancy crash course :-)
Good points and I did think about those things, but they're really hard to quantify as a power up. For the swords, my thought was how is that a power-up for Harry? It's more of a potential for getting a new ally later. For necromancy, will Harry ever use necromancy again? If not, is it a power up?