New Wag

[morriswalters]

Very tenuously supported.  Two points.  First Eb had met Malcolm, says he was gentle.  And he attended a meeting with Margaret discussing a plan.  Margaret breaks with Raith and bails, two years or so she has Harry and dies.  Eb never says where he saw Malcolm and it's never revealed how Margaret broke away.

Eb met Malcolm at that same meeting.  The meeting was about producing a child as a Starborn.  Malcolm is a scion of an angel.  Eb objects but Margaret says to hell with it since she is under the influence  of Raith and has the baby anyway and falls for Malcolm releasing her from Raith's control.  True love.  Possibly Malcolm was himself controlled by Raith. 

Pregnant and having to scoot, she leaves Thomas but not before connecting Thomas and an unborn Harry so that when she throws her death curse it can be powered by them instead of her life force.  She goes into deep Winter under Lea's protection and loses a year while Harry comes to term.  And leaves Winter via a portal in the Lincoln Monument. She gets the protection for Harry by telling Lea who has the Atheme.  Lea sells out Malcolm to the Whites when Harry is six.  And just to make it a real pot boiler, Lara does the deed and leaves Malcolm smiling.

It reads like a cheesy potboiler and I don't know if it is reasonable or not.  But it connects the dots without tearing the fabric too badly.  Feel free to rip it a new one.  48 days to Peace Talks

[Con]

I've always thought she met Malcolm on the minor talent circuit. A precusorser to the Paranet we know malcolm was an amateur magician stands to reason he'd be interested by actual magic.

I do think Malcolm is on the side of the angels he only appears to harry after Lasciel acts and reavhes out to influence harry.

He as much says so.

"So." I said "Why heaven I dreamed about you before"
"Because I wasn't allowed to contact you before" my father said easily "not until others had crossed the line"

Thats basically Urirls calling card only reacting in response. Clearly meaning lasciels shadow in response harry gets some light by a campfire with hia father.

The fact that we find Murphys Dad in the Chicago in Between Purgatory squad is an even bigger hint. Captain Murphy insists on no messages from beyond the grave to his daughter. Presumably malcolm has similar rules he has to follow.

[Mira]

Very tenuously supported.  Two points.  First Eb had met Malcolm, says he was gentle.  And he attended a meeting with Margaret discussing a plan.  Margaret breaks with Raith and bails, two years or so she has Harry and dies.  Eb never says where he saw Malcolm and it's never revealed how Margaret broke away.

Slight correction,  I have a hunch that Eb had soul gazed Malcolm.  Because he doesn't say that he was gentle, he says of him, "But a man with a good soullike few I've ever seen."

Pregnant and having to scoot, she leaves Thomas but not before connecting Thomas and an unborn Harry so that when she throws her death curse it can be powered by them instead of her life force.  She goes into deep Winter under Lea's protection and loses a year while Harry comes to term.  And leaves Winter via a portal in the Lincoln Monument. She gets the protection for Harry by telling Lea who has the Atheme.  Lea sells out Malcolm to the Whites when Harry is six.  And just to make it a real pot boiler, Lara does the deed and leaves Malcolm smiling.

I seem to remember a passage, but I cannot remember the book, where Harry talks about the one photo or one of the few photos he has of him mom, maybe his mom and dad together, and she is happy and very pregnant.   If I didn't dream that, I don't think things went down as you theorize.

The fact that we find Murphys Dad in the Chicago in Between Purgatory squad is an even bigger hint. Captain Murphy insists on no messages from beyond the grave to his daughter. Presumably malcolm has similar rules he has to follow.

But that might be just a personal thing with Captain Murphy and not a general rule.

"So." I said "Why heaven I dreamed about you before"
"Because I wasn't allowed to contact you before" my father said easily "not until others had crossed the line"

It is possible that because Harry is a starborn, he isn't allowed to be overly influenced until he
figures some things out for himself.  Malcolm clearly knows what he is because in the same passage he hints that what he and his mother did in conceiving him was unfair, Margaret hints at the same thing.

[morriswalters]

I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.

26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.

Eb may have soul gazed him, but the question is, when?

Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room.  One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea.  She's a little energizer bunny.  A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny.  I'm trying to connect all of those dots.

[Mira]

I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.Eb may have soul gazed him, but the question is, when?

Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room.  One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea.  She's a little energizer bunny.  A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny.  I'm trying to connect all of those dots.

   Since she was still able to conceive children, apparently 170 years for a wizard isn't that old in vanilla human terms, even if say she was the equivalent of 45 vanilla years.  She also spent quite a bit of those years in the Nevernever, that time may have also affected the physical aging process. 

Perhaps when Eb first met Malcolm, which is very plausible, after all here is this ordinary vanilla human, his daughter falls in love with him and is trying to change her ways.  He'd want to know just who in the hell this person was, so yeah, first meeting, soul gaze.   It is significant and good evidence that he says it is " as good a soul like few I've ever seen."  He doesn't talk man, he talks soul and no doubt Eb has soul gazed and seen a lot of souls in his lifetime. 

I have never read about a photograph, from the timeline.

I am thinking it was Changes after his apartment burned, that Harry talks about the photo.  But he
talks about a photo of them in Washington D.C. and she is pregnant and happy.

Margaret is a busy little honey bee in her last days. She ditches Papa Raith, wires Thomas as a doomsday device, runs down a husband, gets pregnant, goes to DC, meets Morgan and has nine months of married bliss. All before dying in the delivery room.  One presumes that she performed some kind of service either in the former here and now or prior to the events, with Lea.  She's a little energizer bunny.  A one hundred and seventy year old energizer bunny.  I'm trying to connect all of those dots.

One doesn't "run down a husband,"  that implies something of convenience, cold and calculated.  Eb in Blood Rites is very clear on that, she fell in love with a vanilla mortal of no consequences except
he had a very good soul, that influence changed her.  I'm thinking the changes were significant before she ran into Morgan, and that is why he spared her in the first place. 

Here is the order I think things happened..

1] Margaret meets Malcolm, where or why, unknown, she instantly falls in love with him.  Now
was that the result of an inadvertent soul gaze?  Who knows, but meeting him changes her perception about humanity.  She begins to think it might be worth saving after all.  She becomes a better person for Malcolm, and he falls in love with her.  This gives her the strength to leave Raith and her son, little Thomas.  Why leave her baby?  Perhaps she felt he was lost to the Hunger at some point, or if she took him Raith would never leave them alone. 
2]  She introduces him to her father, who also soul gazes him.  Tells her what he sees, very much the same as what she sees, then she begins to form her plan.  Somehow I doubt that she let Eb in on it, does Eb even know at this point that Harry is a star child?

3] She is happy with Malcolm which cements her plans, she is worried about Raith though, so she lets the Winter Court in on her plans,  a bargain is struck and Lea is named the godmother of the child that Margaret will conceive.   She gets pregnant, her and Malcolm visit D.C., there she meets Morgan, hell, he may be the one that took the photo, and asks him to also watch over the baby.. 
We know the rest.   

[morriswalters]

That's your WAG, I sit on mine.  The age is a throw away other then to suggest that whatever Maggie had been doing all her life it must have been done somewhere where time  ran slow while  it ran fast in the mortal world. Margaret looked young and she captured Malcolm's heart. Or that Malcolm was a scion and he was as old as her.

What I'm seeking to do is to connect a lot of dots that Jim has laid out.  There is the dinner with Eb and Margaret's friends, her escape, where Malcolm came into a picture, Harry's conception, the curse on Raith, The connection to Morgan, her death and finally Malcolm's death.  And a silly image of Margaret with some type of curse ready to kill her frolicking at the Lincoln Monument while nine months pregnant.

Supply some specificity.  What was the plan that Margaret was trying to sell Eb on? How did she break free? Where did she meet Malcolm. And why for God's name was she in DC?

[Mira]

That's your WAG, I sit on mine.  The age is a throw away other then to suggest that whatever Maggie had been doing all her life it must have been done somewhere where time  ran slow while  it ran fast in the mortal world. Margaret looked young and she captured Malcolm's heart. Or that Malcolm was a scion and he was as old as her.

I think that is partly true, but also consider that Harry at nearly forty is still considered a mere youth by many.  I seem to remember that a wizard is considered in his or her prime at around 150 so yes,
I can see Margaret, if she hadn't suffered any injuries or illness looking a healthy young thirty something to Malcolm even if she was 170 give or take.

What I'm seeking to do is to connect a lot of dots that Jim has laid out.  There is the dinner with Eb and Margaret's friends, her escape, where Malcolm came into a picture, Harry's conception, the curse on Raith, The connection to Morgan, her death and finally Malcolm's death.  And a silly image of Margaret with some type of curse ready to kill her frolicking at the Lincoln Monument while nine months

From the sound of those dinners, or as described, it sounds like Lord Raith was also present at them.  So hardly a time for planning.   Also given Eb's information from Blood Rites, Malcolm came into the picture before she left Raith.  Also according to Eb in Blood Rites the Wardens were ordered to arrest her on sight, to be almost instantly tried and executed.  So the story told about Morgan, a dedicated
Warden if there ever was one is very odd indeed.  His even asking questions first and not arresting later doesn't seem to fit at all, nor his promises to look after her baby.   It could be that Morgan couldn't stomach a pregnant woman losing her head, though I know the micro story doesn't say anything about that.  Or by the time Morgan caught up with her in D.C. she had changed so radically he decided to listen to what she had to say.  In his journal though, Morgan doesn't say anything about when he talked to Margaret or if it was in D.C., only that he promised to protect her son.

Why was she in D.C.?   Maybe because she was happy, in love, pregnant, and thought she was safe, and they were just out to have a good time.  I don't think she was trying to sell Eb on any plan, where is that written?

[123Chikadee]

@Mira: The 'plan' they keep talking about is from 'Changes' IIRC. Arianna, Lord Raith, Margaret, and Eb were all at a dinner party that was hosted by Lord Raith. Margaret and Eb got into an argument and from there, Arianna realized that they were related b/c they fought like family. I don't think the books ever got more specific about what said plan was but I bet it had to do w/ running a con on the council, as a way to get them to change their laws. Eb disagreed and it might be that b/c of that, it fell through.

I don't really like the idea of Malcolm being anything other than a stage magician who is interested in 'actual' magic. But I do think that Margaret planned on having a starborn before she met Malcolm, only to fall in love w/ him once she realized what a kind person he was.

Maybe they went to DC to meet Morgan?  They could have met under a flag of truce, and b/c she was pregnant, Morgan decided to hear her out. From there they worked out a deal. The photo could be the few times Margaret steps out of Winter to go do something. So maybe she wasn't quite living w/ Malcolm at the time or he lived w/ her?

@morriswalters: The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.

Malcolm may be on the side of the angels after he met Margaret, b/c Uriel saw an opportunity to help bring Harry into existence.  Lea putting a hit on Malcolm could be what supposedly makes her come into conflict w/ Harry down the line, per WOJ.

[Mira]

The 'plan' they keep talking about is from 'Changes' IIRC. Arianna, Lord Raith, Margaret, and Eb were all at a dinner party that was hosted by Lord Raith. Margaret and Eb got into an argument and from there, Arianna realized that they were related b/c they fought like family. I don't think the books ever got more specific about what said plan was but I bet it had to do w/ running a con on the council, as a way to get them to change their laws. Eb disagreed and it might be that b/c of that, it fell through.

I think I may have misunderstood, because the plan I was thinking about was the plan to give birth to a star born. 

don't really like the idea of Malcolm being anything other than a stage magician who is interested in 'actual' magic. But I do think that Margaret planned on having a starborn before she met Malcolm, only to fall in love w/ him once she realized what a kind person he was.

I doubt it because Margaret didn't begin to change until she met Malcolm and fell in love with him. 

Maybe they went to DC to meet Morgan?  They could have met under a flag of truce, and b/c she was pregnant, Morgan decided to hear her out. From there they worked out a deal. The photo could be the few times Margaret steps out of Winter to go do something. So maybe she wasn't quite living w/ Malcolm at the time or he lived w/ her?

Perhaps, though I believe that she was married to Malcolm and they lived lovingly together.  However as a professional magician, even a mediocre one, he had to be on the road a lot to make a living for her and the child.

The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.

No, but that doesn't leave out other ways of murdering someone.. Lord Raith didn't kill Margaret by feeding upon her.

Malcolm may be on the side of the angels after he met Margaret, b/c Uriel saw an opportunity to help bring Harry into existence.  Lea putting a hit on Malcolm could be what supposedly makes her come into conflict w/ Harry down the line, per WOJ.

What is that WOJ exactly?  Just because killing Malcolm and promising to protect Harry seem to contradict each other.

[g33k]

... However as a professional magician, even a mediocre one, he had to be on the road a lot to make a living for her and the child ...

Not necessarily:

• Margaret could easily have grabbed a fair bit of cash and/or other resources, in departing from Papa's.
• As an experienced and powerful WC practitioner, she may well have had accounts she had set up in case she needed resources.
• Last but not least, the perennial "how do wizards earn money" thread(s) give us lots of options whereby Margaret could have easily earned plenty to live on.

But it's strongly implied that Malcom was pretty poor, as Harry was growing up.  So all of Margaret's financial contributions -- if any -- were on an ad-hoc basis, rather than investments/accounts that could be used on an ongoing basis.

[Mira]

Not necessarily:

• Margaret could easily have grabbed a fair bit of cash and/or other resources, in departing from Papa's.
• As an experienced and powerful WC practitioner, she may well have had accounts she had set up in case she needed resources.
• Last but not least, the perennial "how do wizards earn money" thread(s) give us lots of options whereby Margaret could have easily earned plenty to live on.

But it's strongly implied that Malcom was pretty poor, as Harry was growing up.  So all of Margaret's financial contributions -- if any -- were on an ad-hoc basis, rather than investments/accounts that could be used on an ongoing basis.

Maybe, but she may have lost all her finances when she gave up her old life.  Also I am willing to bet
that Malcolm is who Harry gets his old fashioned ideas about how to treat women from.  Malcolm would want to be the bread winner..  Not only that, but it sounds like Margaret wasn't pardoned by the White Council, so she'd have to keep a pretty low profile.

[123Chikadee]

@Mira: I'm thinking that Margaret was starting to regret how her life turned out before she met Malcolm and wanted out but needed some type of plan for it. Then she met Malcolm and fell for him.
Yeah that 'plan' was never really elaborated on, but I could very well be wrong.
I think we're in agreement about the ways of killing Malcolm are many. . (I shouldn't put a smile-y there, he dies after all, lol)
@g33k: Better show that thread to Harry, lol.

[Mira]

@Mira: I'm thinking that Margaret was starting to regret how her life turned out before she met Malcolm and wanted out but needed some type of plan for it. Then she met Malcolm and fell for him.
Yeah that 'plan' was never really elaborated on, but I could very well be wrong.
I think we're in agreement about the ways of killing Malcolm are many. . (I shouldn't put a smile-y there, he dies after all, lol)
@g33k: Better show that thread to Harry, lol.

  However there is no evidence that Margaret regretted her life before she met Malcolm.  But you could be right, the way it is written in Blood Rites is a bit ambitious.  Eb says she turned away from her old life, Justin etc, was on the run for a couple of years, Wardens had orders to arrest her on sight for immediate trial and execution, Eb also had orders but he never said what they were.. Harry asks what happened?  Eb simply answers that she met Malcolm and what a good soul he had. 

However it isn't clear why she began to run,  did she truly begin to regret?  Or was the heat getting too great and she had to get out of the kitchen?  Did meeting Malcolm begin her transformation or merely finish a job well on it's way?

[morriswalters]

The only thing is, that if Malcolm and Margaret were in love, then Lara or any other WCV wouldn't be able to feed from him. Though Lara could use a catspaw to assassinate him, so the point still stands. I like this idea a lot.

My idea is that the act of love breaks the hold Raith had on her.

The meeting mentioned in Changes was to sell an idea(in my WAG), creating a Starborn. Here's the relevant text.

They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”

A reaction you might expect if the object of the exercise was to be his grandson.

The backstory has pretty consistently been that Harry is dangerous on an existential level.  The Council fears him, and had Morgan dog him and the Black Staff prepared to kill him. The whole point of Proven Guilty is to kill Harry and only the intervention of Mab and Uriel prevent it.  He's watched constantly.  The very act of Harry discovering the name of the Adversary changes the path to the future.

So my WAG sees Margaret, under the control of Raith, attempt to create a weapon.  Jim teases it's name, Destroyer.  The timing of Margaret's introduction is up in the air.  Here's the text.

"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion." He looked up at me directly and said, "He used an entropy curse. A ritual entropy curse."

The text is neutral to the timing of the meeting, but when describing the time from the period when she ran,    Eb says that she ran from him for those two years(approximate).  So Eb would have had to see him before she ran or after she was dead.  For the WAG I choose before.

You can argue any number of things but my next quote is at the core of my WAG.

She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."

Whatever was done to Harry she felt guilt over it.

[Mira]

Whatever was done to Harry she felt guilt over it.

That one isn't hard to figure out, it is the same guilt that Malcolm felt.  They conceived a star child,  that put a huge burden on Harry before he even drew his first breath.  The fate of mankind could very well rest on his shoulders someday, and he didn't ask for any of it.  That is the kind of thing that makes a loving parent feel guilty.